3 ms·

I don't support ubiquitous spying at all but are you hanging out with known ISIS members or members of White Nationalist Militias regularly? Because I'm pretty

I don't support ubiquitous spying at all but are you hanging out with known ISIS members or members of White Nationalist Militias regularly? Because I'm pretty sure that's where the line begins.

7thaccount 3y ago
I think they're just saying it's a slippery slope. It starts out with good intentions we all agree on, but then continues to slide and more and more of our freedoms erode as they crank up the boiling pot ever so slowly.
AlexandrB 3y ago
There's a lot of grey here. What does "hanging out" mean? If my weird uncle is (unknown to me) in ISIS does spending thanksgiving with him count as "hanging out"? ISIS is at least pretty specific, but what counts as a White Nationalist Militia? Both of these can be redefined to capture more and more of the population if desired.
- forgotmyinfo 3y ago
  This is what we have attorneys and judges for. And no, obviously Thanksgiving isn't "hanging out". But going to the same weekly meeting and practicing lynching minorities? Yeah, that's a little more than just mashed potatoes and gravy, isn't it. (These contrived "whatabout" gotchas are exhausting. It is abundantly obvious who is and who is not involved with white nationalist militias.)
  - nurple 3y ago
    Yes, all the legal arguments presented before the FISA court by the lawyers working on behalf of those targeted have been really interesting reads!
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      There aren't legal arguments by the targets in law enforcement search (either physical or wiretap) warrant cases either, that mainly only happens if (as does not always happen) the product of the search is used in criminal prosecution later.
  - sakjur 3y ago
    None of those things seem particularly obvious to me.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    It's really the court of public opinion that has the greatest risk of harm at the day to day level. A non-poc going to the gun range and then posting on social media could cause a "White Nationalist Militia" label to get attached by a jilted coworker and then go viral. That can cause serious harm.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      Maybe gun clubs should implement DEI programs. Then those pictures would have some colorful people in the background.
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
If you don't know, who they are and just happen to serve a 'bad guy' ( hate that term ) a burger, should you be in the crosshairs? Because this is where this is heading. If you think I am overselling it, remember that police in US can ask for all users from specific location. To your point, if there is indeed a line, it need to be clearly articulated so that the rules of the game clear.
hwbehrens 3y ago
> I'm pretty sure that's where the line begins Based on what? From my perspective, the easiest way to design such a system would be to create entries for every 'actor' in the system, feed in as much data as you can get your hands on, and then let the weights sort themselves out. So for example, if you're hanging out with ISIS members obviously your weights would be higher, but even if you're a server at Applebees you'd still be in the system somewhere. Doing it the other way necessitates some kind of bright-line division, and any such boundary, once defined, becomes susceptible to exploitation. e.g. I won't hang out with the White Nationalist Militia because that puts me "into the system", but I can hang out with insert radical right-wing group where I can talk to 80% of the same people without being flagged. In practice, I imagine that the gradient of extremism is rather gradual and with blurred boundaries.
- humansareok1 3y ago
  As another poster mentioned this is literally why we have courts. There is a clear line for obtaining a search warrant for example. Precedents exist.
  - raisin_churn 3y ago
    Are you familiar with FISC? I'd say go familiarize yourself with its case law, but you can't, because it's secret. And it authorizes methods much more powerful and invasive than a simple search warrant. Precedent exists, but nobody outside the national security state actually knows what it is.
    - humansareok1 3y ago
      You're maybe proposing another line where no spying is legal at all and we should just submit ourselves to the whims of terrorists or other lunatics? Surely there is actually a line where there are tradeoffs between security and privacy and its probably not 0% security and 100% privacy. Perhaps you think all FISA rulings should be public and any sufficiently savvy malicious actors can just read them to know exactly how to avoid suspicion?
    - 3y ago
wpietri 3y ago
Maybe that's where the line starts, but does it stay there? As an example, look at how the US's anti-communist fervor led to things like COINTELPRO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO Especially today, I think we have to look at every power we might give to government and ask, "What happens if the worst people get access to this?" Because they're certainly going to try.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  Did we give it, or was it taken? Yeah, maybe we consented to The Patriot Act. But when it was renewed, it was *expanded*. Too late now.
chiefalchemist 3y ago
You've heard of guilt by association, well guilt by co-location isn't that far off. Along the same lines, the rationale is going to be, "We need to track everyone so we can be sure to see all relationships and connections, and connections to connections, and so on. Try to draw the line wherever you want, but they're going to step over it, and never look back.

I don't support ubiquitous spying at all but are you hanging out with known ISIS members or members of White Nationalist Militias regularly? Because I'm pretty sure that's where the line begins.

7thaccount 3y ago

I think they're just saying it's a slippery slope. It starts out with good intentions we all agree on, but then continues to slide and more and more of our freedoms erode as they crank up the boiling pot ever so slowly.

AlexandrB 3y ago

There's a lot of grey here. What does "hanging out" mean? If my weird uncle is (unknown to me) in ISIS does spending thanksgiving with him count as "hanging out"? ISIS is at least pretty specific, but what counts as a White Nationalist Militia? Both of these can be redefined to capture more and more of the population if desired.

forgotmyinfo 3y ago
This is what we have attorneys and judges for. And no, obviously Thanksgiving isn't "hanging out". But going to the same weekly meeting and practicing lynching minorities? Yeah, that's a little more than just mashed potatoes and gravy, isn't it. (These contrived "whatabout" gotchas are exhausting. It is abundantly obvious who is and who is not involved with white nationalist militias.)
- nurple 3y ago
  Yes, all the legal arguments presented before the FISA court by the lawyers working on behalf of those targeted have been really interesting reads!
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    There aren't legal arguments by the targets in law enforcement search (either physical or wiretap) warrant cases either, that mainly only happens if (as does not always happen) the product of the search is used in criminal prosecution later.
- sakjur 3y ago
  None of those things seem particularly obvious to me.
- chasd00 3y ago
  It's really the court of public opinion that has the greatest risk of harm at the day to day level. A non-poc going to the gun range and then posting on social media could cause a "White Nationalist Militia" label to get attached by a jilted coworker and then go viral. That can cause serious harm.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    Maybe gun clubs should implement DEI programs. Then those pictures would have some colorful people in the background.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

If you don't know, who they are and just happen to serve a 'bad guy' ( hate that term ) a burger, should you be in the crosshairs? Because this is where this is heading. If you think I am overselling it, remember that police in US can ask for all users from specific location. To your point, if there is indeed a line, it need to be clearly articulated so that the rules of the game clear.

hwbehrens 3y ago

> I'm pretty sure that's where the line begins Based on what? From my perspective, the easiest way to design such a system would be to create entries for every 'actor' in the system, feed in as much data as you can get your hands on, and then let the weights sort themselves out. So for example, if you're hanging out with ISIS members obviously your weights would be higher, but even if you're a server at Applebees you'd still be in the system somewhere. Doing it the other way necessitates some kind of bright-line division, and any such boundary, once defined, becomes susceptible to exploitation. e.g. I won't hang out with the White Nationalist Militia because that puts me "into the system", but I can hang out with insert radical right-wing group where I can talk to 80% of the same people without being flagged. In practice, I imagine that the gradient of extremism is rather gradual and with blurred boundaries.

humansareok1 3y ago
As another poster mentioned this is literally why we have courts. There is a clear line for obtaining a search warrant for example. Precedents exist.
- raisin_churn 3y ago
  Are you familiar with FISC? I'd say go familiarize yourself with its case law, but you can't, because it's secret. And it authorizes methods much more powerful and invasive than a simple search warrant. Precedent exists, but nobody outside the national security state actually knows what it is.
  - humansareok1 3y ago
    You're maybe proposing another line where no spying is legal at all and we should just submit ourselves to the whims of terrorists or other lunatics? Surely there is actually a line where there are tradeoffs between security and privacy and its probably not 0% security and 100% privacy. Perhaps you think all FISA rulings should be public and any sufficiently savvy malicious actors can just read them to know exactly how to avoid suspicion?
  - 3y ago

wpietri 3y ago

Maybe that's where the line starts, but does it stay there? As an example, look at how the US's anti-communist fervor led to things like COINTELPRO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO Especially today, I think we have to look at every power we might give to government and ask, "What happens if the worst people get access to this?" Because they're certainly going to try.

chiefalchemist 3y ago
Did we give it, or was it taken? Yeah, maybe we consented to The Patriot Act. But when it was renewed, it was *expanded*. Too late now.

chiefalchemist 3y ago

You've heard of guilt by association, well guilt by co-location isn't that far off. Along the same lines, the rationale is going to be, "We need to track everyone so we can be sure to see all relationships and connections, and connections to connections, and so on. Try to draw the line wherever you want, but they're going to step over it, and never look back.