11 ms·

Is Europe better than America for working in tech?

082349872349872 3y ago
My current MO is: live in europe but take US clients. I'm a night person anyway, but the time shift could be problematic for people who aren't.
- andrewstetsenko 3y ago
  It's great that you can adapt to your natural night owl tendencies, but I can see how coordinating with clients across different time zones could present its own set of hurdles for those less accustomed to it. How do you navigate those time differences effectively?"
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    My family is cool with it. (we get to spend a lot of time together, outside, during "normal" office hours, so trading that against the occasional dinner-3AM crunch is actually a win as far as they're concerned) At the turn of the century I had a special international phone plan, but now I just Slack and Zoom, even via mobile tether.
- jpgvm 3y ago
  I do the same living in Thailand but the TZ is tough. Worth it for the lifestyle advantages though and in a few years I can just semi-retire and just take jobs that I like.
theodric 3y ago
If you prefer top-tier work-life balance and social programs, Europe is better. If you prefer having a chance at making mind-bending levels of compensation, the USA is better. On balance, if you want to make very good but not astonishing levels of money but remain in Europe, go to Switzerland and work for a bank while you still can. I'm not saying it's fun, just lucrative.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  > while you still can Are you referring to ageism or is banking moving out of Switzerland? Semi relatedly, big tech has US tier comp in Zurich and I’ve never really been sure why. Is the market rate there driven up that much by the banks? What about London?
  - ulfw 3y ago
    Big Tech? You mean Google? who else is in Zurich? Google's salaries in Europe never really made sense
    - EuropeanTech 3y ago
      Meta, Microsoft, Apple, and Nvidia are also present in Zurich/Switzerland and are all currently hiring engineers.
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    >Semi relatedly, big tech has US tier comp in Zurich and I’ve never really been sure why. Is the market rate there driven up that much by the banks? It's probably driven up simply by the cost of living. Switzerland is a very expensive place to live compared to most of Europe. Just look at how much hotels cost there for a vacation, and then compare to some nearby cities in Italy or Germany or Austria.
  - theodric 3y ago
    Not ageism, not when I was there. We'd hire people in their 60s if they could do the job. But in a way, banking is leaving Switzerland: the general trend across industries is against putting more and more roles in Switzerland when they could just as well be done for much less elsewhere. That's what is happening everywhere. The Swiss folks weren't impressed because "it's a Swiss bank!" but the thing is, it's not a Swiss bank-- it's a global bank with Swiss heritage. As of when I departed, nobody was being shoved out of their seat, but people who left weren't being replaced in-country unless their job involved turning a crank that had to be physically located in Switzerland. If the crank could be moved, it got moved. Perqs like company cars and a special restaurant for execs and boni 2* comp are long gone for newcomers. Also there are half as many huge banks in Switzerland as there were a little over a year ago, and there certainly aren't twice as many jobs in that one remaining huge bank as there were a little over a year ago, because of economies of scale. As for comp: Zurich is expensive, Switzerland is expensive, and the FAANGS have to kick out proper comp to attract people because EVERYTHING pays good money. A semi-skilled entry-level physical laborer at one of the financials can come in the door at nearly 100k, because that person has to be able to pay rent and food, too. But it's not more expensive than California. My rent on a 3-storey townhouse with parking in a close Zurich suburb on the train line was 2250 CHF, and I bought our food at Lidl and Aldi for maybe 150/week. Health insurance 550/mo for both of us. You'll pay that kind of money for rent and food in Dublin these days on a far lower salary, and you'll lose a lot more than 10-15% to tax, as well. Switzerland is a special place. Big tech has fantastic comp anywhere for the right person, tho! A FOAF at a FAANG in Poland recently bought outright a new-build $500k house with 3 years of salary-derived savings and bonus.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
netsharc 3y ago
Written by a guy (and submitted by him too) that runs a recruitement agency for European positions... Although I do feel like having a life outside of work is more important than trying to boost how fast the number goes up which is stored in the field labelled "total assets", so Europe is better.
j7ake 3y ago
What products have European tech companies made that the average person uses often? I can only think of Spotify. Would love to be enlightened otherwise.
- diskevich 3y ago
  Skype, Booking.com, SoundCloud, SAP, Autodesk, Nokia in the past :)
  - ulfw 3y ago
    Autodesk is an American company based and founded in California
    - diskevich 3y ago
      Autodesk is an American company, you're right. We can also expand the previous list of companies with HelloFresh, TrustPilot, Bolt, Brainly, Shazam
      - whamlastxmas 3y ago
        Shazam was founded by an American living in California. It releases first in the UK under a UK business though. I don’t see that as counting
  - FpUser 3y ago
    Replace Autodesk with Solidworks
    - jakopo87 3y ago
      Or Blender.
- guyomes 3y ago
  In the sector of computer chips manufacturing, ASML [0] is a pretty big European tech company. Also, if we think in term of people instead of companies, many big tech companies have offices in Europe or buy European companies. They employ European people with tech skills and productivity that seem good enough for those tech companies. So we can say that European people also make products that the average person uses often, even though their company is not labeled as European. Mostly I think that scientific education level is an important factor for jobs in tech companies, and Europe seems to be ok in this area. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding
renewiltord 3y ago
Earn in the US, retire in the EU. Working in the EU for life is working for life. But ten years in the US all engines burning and you can take it easy in the EU.
- dcminter 3y ago
  This sounds hellish to me. Sacrifice family/social life for a decade merely so that you can be relatively well off in the EU... assuming that inflation or international cataclysm doesn't eat the value of your savings? Versus... just live with a good work/life balance in the EU in the first place?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Wages do not keep up with inflation, assets do. The sacrifice is to secure enough assets to move up in levels of “security” (such as security of being able to procure medical/legal/education/land/other services that are beyond most wage earner’s capacity. Although, it is also a perfectly reasonable move to not gamble on that and instead spend time with your family or friends or whatnot. Just depends what an individual wants to bet on.
  - beeeeerp 3y ago
    To each their own, but I’m one of those people hoarding to retire (albeit at a slower burn rate than the original poster). I’m just not built for a 9-5 (or seemingly structured work for that matter). I do enjoy what I’m doing, but I can’t wait to sleep in every day and be spontaneous about my plans. I went on sabbatical for half a year a while back, and it changed me. I can’t wait to get back in that frame of mind. I’ll probably pick up some work/hobbies for fun, but I don’t like work to dictate my life. I’m working towards every day being a mini vacation. My work/life balance is also already very good, but it would be a lot better IMO if I could take off randomly for a month and fill my time with whatever suits me at that moment.
- cheschire 3y ago
  Well I can’t speak for all of the EU, but as far as I know Germany can’t be the only country that has issues with delays for routine medical care due to the lack of doctors and other staff.
Dries007 3y ago
Notes from Belgium: - A full time working week is 38h by law. If you do work 40h, you get that time (so 12 days/year) back to compensate. There are talks about a 34h workweek, but that seems unlikely in the near future IMO. We tend to have 30m lunch breaks, not the 2h long siesta like in the south. - You are required to take your holidays. Your employer can get in serious trouble if you don't, so "leaving vacations days unused" almost doesn't exist. Some systems allow you to transfer your extra legal holidays to next year, but the base 20 you basically have to take every year. - We also have 10 public holidays. If you have to work on those, you get to recoup the day. Same goes for work on Sunday for most people, if Sunday work is even allowed in your sector. - Sick days are normally not something you have to worry about as an employee, provided you have a doters note (which costs you 4€ for the visit). Although most places are starting to relax the note requirement for short (1-3 day) things. For short sick leave, you'll get 100% of your wage from your employer. Once it becomes a long term thing, you fall back on the health care system, which usually covers 70% of your wage. Some employers contribute the other 30%. - Health care wise: We pay contributions via our wages into a "mutuality" based system. There are a few choices (1 government run, the rest are non profits) that offer different benefits, but the base coverage is mostly the same. Enrollment in this system is mandatory. More and more employers offer supplementary healthcare that can have benefits like full reimbursement of brand medicine instead of only the cost of generics, getting private rooms during hospitalizations for free, additional dental coverage, a new pair of glasses every year, ... Note that this is all assuming you are an employee, not self-employed. There are also some legal differences between blue- and white-collar workers, but are slowly being removed over time.
- mo_42 3y ago
  > - You are required to take your holidays. Your employer can get in serious trouble if you don't, so "leaving vacations days unused" almost doesn't exist. Some systems allow you to transfer your extra legal holidays to next year, but the base 20 you basically have to take every year. I think I understand the rationale behind this. Basically people should take some rest every now and then. Personally, I consider this a violation of my freedom to work however I like. I like to work and usually I take just a few days off per year so I can, for example, visit the dentist without being stressed out to miss a work-related meeting. 20 days is basically an entire month of work. So people there work only 11/12 per year.
adenot 3y ago
How is salary not part of the comparison? It's one of the main reasons people choose the US over other places.
Omniusaspirer 3y ago
Copying an old comment of mine regarding EU vs US nursing salaries: "...our incomes are comically higher for skilled persons than European salaries. I literally make 10 times what my French counterpart would in my profession and with a much lower tax rate so the real difference is even larger. I could work for 5 years and retire in France wealthier than if I had worked a 40 year career in France." This is assuming only 40 hours a week, pick up more shifts and the numbers become even sillier. I suspect that most (if not all) professions could say the same although the magnitude of difference might be a bit smaller. Even if I lived in the EU and never wanted to leave, I'd ride out some years in the US to get life properly rolling back home.
freitzkriesler2 3y ago
Do you like making money and lots of money, big houses, cheap cars, and the ability to make even more money? Then move to America. Do you like having a higher quality of life, cool walkable cities, exotic med vacation spots that are honestly better than the carribbean, and several different cultures and languages 1 to 3 hours way? Then move to Europe. Don't get me wrong, I've lived in Europe and it's very nice but I would rather make lots of money in America. European countries have a different set of problems that offset the many benefits they have. My European friends have asked me how much I make and they've all consistently say I make as much money as a veteran senior executive.
Simulacra 3y ago
I think in job security, Europe is a much better place than America for working and technology. Europe has far more protections for the worker.
_hao 3y ago
I don't get this mindset for grinding out your best years away in chasing money rather than just enjoying life. Fact of the matter is the money you make will never be enough, even if you become wealthy you won't be able to buy your years back. Enjoy life and good friends all the time rather than in some nebulous perfect future when you've "made it". Speaking as an European here, but that's also why I've never seriously thought about making the jump to the US. The work culture there is just unappealing to me.

My current MO is: live in europe but take US clients. I'm a night person anyway, but the time shift could be problematic for people who aren't.

andrewstetsenko 3y ago
It's great that you can adapt to your natural night owl tendencies, but I can see how coordinating with clients across different time zones could present its own set of hurdles for those less accustomed to it. How do you navigate those time differences effectively?"
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  My family is cool with it. (we get to spend a lot of time together, outside, during "normal" office hours, so trading that against the occasional dinner-3AM crunch is actually a win as far as they're concerned) At the turn of the century I had a special international phone plan, but now I just Slack and Zoom, even via mobile tether.
jpgvm 3y ago
I do the same living in Thailand but the TZ is tough. Worth it for the lifestyle advantages though and in a few years I can just semi-retire and just take jobs that I like.

theodric 3y ago

If you prefer top-tier work-life balance and social programs, Europe is better. If you prefer having a chance at making mind-bending levels of compensation, the USA is better. On balance, if you want to make very good but not astonishing levels of money but remain in Europe, go to Switzerland and work for a bank while you still can. I'm not saying it's fun, just lucrative.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
> while you still can Are you referring to ageism or is banking moving out of Switzerland? Semi relatedly, big tech has US tier comp in Zurich and I’ve never really been sure why. Is the market rate there driven up that much by the banks? What about London?
- ulfw 3y ago
  Big Tech? You mean Google? who else is in Zurich? Google's salaries in Europe never really made sense
  - EuropeanTech 3y ago
    Meta, Microsoft, Apple, and Nvidia are also present in Zurich/Switzerland and are all currently hiring engineers.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  >Semi relatedly, big tech has US tier comp in Zurich and I’ve never really been sure why. Is the market rate there driven up that much by the banks? It's probably driven up simply by the cost of living. Switzerland is a very expensive place to live compared to most of Europe. Just look at how much hotels cost there for a vacation, and then compare to some nearby cities in Italy or Germany or Austria.
- theodric 3y ago
  Not ageism, not when I was there. We'd hire people in their 60s if they could do the job. But in a way, banking is leaving Switzerland: the general trend across industries is against putting more and more roles in Switzerland when they could just as well be done for much less elsewhere. That's what is happening everywhere. The Swiss folks weren't impressed because "it's a Swiss bank!" but the thing is, it's not a Swiss bank-- it's a global bank with Swiss heritage. As of when I departed, nobody was being shoved out of their seat, but people who left weren't being replaced in-country unless their job involved turning a crank that had to be physically located in Switzerland. If the crank could be moved, it got moved. Perqs like company cars and a special restaurant for execs and boni 2* comp are long gone for newcomers. Also there are half as many huge banks in Switzerland as there were a little over a year ago, and there certainly aren't twice as many jobs in that one remaining huge bank as there were a little over a year ago, because of economies of scale. As for comp: Zurich is expensive, Switzerland is expensive, and the FAANGS have to kick out proper comp to attract people because EVERYTHING pays good money. A semi-skilled entry-level physical laborer at one of the financials can come in the door at nearly 100k, because that person has to be able to pay rent and food, too. But it's not more expensive than California. My rent on a 3-storey townhouse with parking in a close Zurich suburb on the train line was 2250 CHF, and I bought our food at Lidl and Aldi for maybe 150/week. Health insurance 550/mo for both of us. You'll pay that kind of money for rent and food in Dublin these days on a far lower salary, and you'll lose a lot more than 10-15% to tax, as well. Switzerland is a special place. Big tech has fantastic comp anywhere for the right person, tho! A FOAF at a FAANG in Poland recently bought outright a new-build $500k house with 3 years of salary-derived savings and bonus.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

netsharc 3y ago

Written by a guy (and submitted by him too) that runs a recruitement agency for European positions... Although I do feel like having a life outside of work is more important than trying to boost how fast the number goes up which is stored in the field labelled "total assets", so Europe is better.

j7ake 3y ago

What products have European tech companies made that the average person uses often? I can only think of Spotify. Would love to be enlightened otherwise.

diskevich 3y ago
Skype, Booking.com, SoundCloud, SAP, Autodesk, Nokia in the past :)
- ulfw 3y ago
  Autodesk is an American company based and founded in California
  - diskevich 3y ago
    Autodesk is an American company, you're right. We can also expand the previous list of companies with HelloFresh, TrustPilot, Bolt, Brainly, Shazam
    - whamlastxmas 3y ago
      Shazam was founded by an American living in California. It releases first in the UK under a UK business though. I don’t see that as counting
- FpUser 3y ago
  Replace Autodesk with Solidworks
  - jakopo87 3y ago
    Or Blender.
guyomes 3y ago
In the sector of computer chips manufacturing, ASML [0] is a pretty big European tech company. Also, if we think in term of people instead of companies, many big tech companies have offices in Europe or buy European companies. They employ European people with tech skills and productivity that seem good enough for those tech companies. So we can say that European people also make products that the average person uses often, even though their company is not labeled as European. Mostly I think that scientific education level is an important factor for jobs in tech companies, and Europe seems to be ok in this area. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding

renewiltord 3y ago

Earn in the US, retire in the EU. Working in the EU for life is working for life. But ten years in the US all engines burning and you can take it easy in the EU.

dcminter 3y ago
This sounds hellish to me. Sacrifice family/social life for a decade merely so that you can be relatively well off in the EU... assuming that inflation or international cataclysm doesn't eat the value of your savings? Versus... just live with a good work/life balance in the EU in the first place?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Wages do not keep up with inflation, assets do. The sacrifice is to secure enough assets to move up in levels of “security” (such as security of being able to procure medical/legal/education/land/other services that are beyond most wage earner’s capacity. Although, it is also a perfectly reasonable move to not gamble on that and instead spend time with your family or friends or whatnot. Just depends what an individual wants to bet on.
- beeeeerp 3y ago
  To each their own, but I’m one of those people hoarding to retire (albeit at a slower burn rate than the original poster). I’m just not built for a 9-5 (or seemingly structured work for that matter). I do enjoy what I’m doing, but I can’t wait to sleep in every day and be spontaneous about my plans. I went on sabbatical for half a year a while back, and it changed me. I can’t wait to get back in that frame of mind. I’ll probably pick up some work/hobbies for fun, but I don’t like work to dictate my life. I’m working towards every day being a mini vacation. My work/life balance is also already very good, but it would be a lot better IMO if I could take off randomly for a month and fill my time with whatever suits me at that moment.
cheschire 3y ago
Well I can’t speak for all of the EU, but as far as I know Germany can’t be the only country that has issues with delays for routine medical care due to the lack of doctors and other staff.

Dries007 3y ago

Notes from Belgium: - A full time working week is 38h by law. If you do work 40h, you get that time (so 12 days/year) back to compensate. There are talks about a 34h workweek, but that seems unlikely in the near future IMO. We tend to have 30m lunch breaks, not the 2h long siesta like in the south. - You are required to take your holidays. Your employer can get in serious trouble if you don't, so "leaving vacations days unused" almost doesn't exist. Some systems allow you to transfer your extra legal holidays to next year, but the base 20 you basically have to take every year. - We also have 10 public holidays. If you have to work on those, you get to recoup the day. Same goes for work on Sunday for most people, if Sunday work is even allowed in your sector. - Sick days are normally not something you have to worry about as an employee, provided you have a doters note (which costs you 4€ for the visit). Although most places are starting to relax the note requirement for short (1-3 day) things. For short sick leave, you'll get 100% of your wage from your employer. Once it becomes a long term thing, you fall back on the health care system, which usually covers 70% of your wage. Some employers contribute the other 30%. - Health care wise: We pay contributions via our wages into a "mutuality" based system. There are a few choices (1 government run, the rest are non profits) that offer different benefits, but the base coverage is mostly the same. Enrollment in this system is mandatory. More and more employers offer supplementary healthcare that can have benefits like full reimbursement of brand medicine instead of only the cost of generics, getting private rooms during hospitalizations for free, additional dental coverage, a new pair of glasses every year, ... Note that this is all assuming you are an employee, not self-employed. There are also some legal differences between blue- and white-collar workers, but are slowly being removed over time.

mo_42 3y ago
> - You are required to take your holidays. Your employer can get in serious trouble if you don't, so "leaving vacations days unused" almost doesn't exist. Some systems allow you to transfer your extra legal holidays to next year, but the base 20 you basically have to take every year. I think I understand the rationale behind this. Basically people should take some rest every now and then. Personally, I consider this a violation of my freedom to work however I like. I like to work and usually I take just a few days off per year so I can, for example, visit the dentist without being stressed out to miss a work-related meeting. 20 days is basically an entire month of work. So people there work only 11/12 per year.

adenot 3y ago

How is salary not part of the comparison? It's one of the main reasons people choose the US over other places.

Omniusaspirer 3y ago

Copying an old comment of mine regarding EU vs US nursing salaries: "...our incomes are comically higher for skilled persons than European salaries. I literally make 10 times what my French counterpart would in my profession and with a much lower tax rate so the real difference is even larger. I could work for 5 years and retire in France wealthier than if I had worked a 40 year career in France." This is assuming only 40 hours a week, pick up more shifts and the numbers become even sillier. I suspect that most (if not all) professions could say the same although the magnitude of difference might be a bit smaller. Even if I lived in the EU and never wanted to leave, I'd ride out some years in the US to get life properly rolling back home.

freitzkriesler2 3y ago

Do you like making money and lots of money, big houses, cheap cars, and the ability to make even more money? Then move to America. Do you like having a higher quality of life, cool walkable cities, exotic med vacation spots that are honestly better than the carribbean, and several different cultures and languages 1 to 3 hours way? Then move to Europe. Don't get me wrong, I've lived in Europe and it's very nice but I would rather make lots of money in America. European countries have a different set of problems that offset the many benefits they have. My European friends have asked me how much I make and they've all consistently say I make as much money as a veteran senior executive.

Simulacra 3y ago

I think in job security, Europe is a much better place than America for working and technology. Europe has far more protections for the worker.

_hao 3y ago

I don't get this mindset for grinding out your best years away in chasing money rather than just enjoying life. Fact of the matter is the money you make will never be enough, even if you become wealthy you won't be able to buy your years back. Enjoy life and good friends all the time rather than in some nebulous perfect future when you've "made it". Speaking as an European here, but that's also why I've never seriously thought about making the jump to the US. The work culture there is just unappealing to me.