4 ms·

Learning isn't all fun. Everyone thinks they can make learning fun, but it's always a combination of things that are very specific to the person suggesting it (

by wisty 3y ago

Learning isn't all fun. Everyone thinks they can make learning fun, but it's always a combination of things that are very specific to the person suggesting it ('Actually making everything Thomas the Tank Engine themed is magic and works very well!') or just wistful thinking ('If the teacher didn't tell me to work I would have been more motivated!'). And most of the more valid research suggests more conservative approaches work pretty well. Schools have to make kids do stuff that just isn't fun, without paying them or offering any real incentives (other than grades, which only count in the last year), so they need to make sure kids don't have excuses to shirk.

tokai 3y ago
There is a huge cap between 'learning isn't always fun' to 'breaking the human right to sanitation[0] will aid learning somehow'. [0] https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-water-and-sanitation/about-human-rights-water-and-sanitation https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-water-and-san...
- wisty 3y ago
  So to ensure students can use a bathroom if they really need to, but aren't abusing it to just take a break every class (missing maybe 25% of their class time? Say 15 minutes per hour class) you'd agree to something like an app to track it?
  - educaysean 3y ago
    I'd never agree. What happens if I need more than 15 minutes? Will I be deemed a bad student because I simply need more time to do my business? What does this have to do with how I learn?
  - tokai 3y ago
    No not at all. The idea is absurd. Even entertaining that it could be a solution is suspect. If students leave class too much they are marked as absent. It works many other places in the world, without having to do some creepy surveillance of kids bodily functions.
    - wisty 3y ago
      Are they marked absemt on some kind of app?
      - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
        We used to use a piece of paper called an "attendance sheet", with ruled lines on it. You can think of it as an excel-like app, with touchscreen stylus functionality and good battery life.
      - hn_acker 3y ago
        Not a teacher, but yes. The very same app that teachers use for grading, is my guess. The teacher does the attendance tracking. The app just records what the teacher puts into it. The teacher is free to take notes of when people leave and enter. If most of the class time has the students seated then a student walking around likely is very eyecatching. (What do blind teachers do? Roll call + the honor system is my first guess. Maybe handing out bathroom passes manually would be a viable Plan B.)
  - pc86 3y ago
    How about you can use the bathroom when you need to, and if you actually find instances of students not using the bathroom, cutting class, etc. you address it by punishing those students. Give them detention. Make them have a chaperone at random times. Suspend them. Punish the behavior you want to regulate (lying about using the bathroom to goof off) and don't try to regulate unrelated and uncontrollable bodily functions.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      I don't disagree but the reason schools are turning to alternatives is because schools can't afford the labor to do those things.
      - code_runner 3y ago
        good point. lets get some bids on the "shit tracking app", pay for a seat for every student and then make sure we further stretch the teachers by giving them a special admin seat in said "shit tracking app" and making sure they punish over-shitters
        kube-system 3y ago
        Students also have trouble using the restroom when the facilities are inoperable due to vandalism. There's not really a good solution. What is necessary is more staffing, but there is not enough labor available at the rates school districts are able to pay.
      - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
        > I don't disagree but the reason schools are turning to alternatives is because schools can't afford the labor to do those things. Hall monitors did this for generations.
        kube-system 3y ago
        That would be the labor I'm referring to. The majority of US schools report struggling to hire paraprofessionals. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/how-bad-are-school-staffing-shortages-what-we-learned-by-asking-administrators/2021/10 https://www.edweek.org/leadership/how-bad-are-school-staffin...
  - itishappy 3y ago
    Is there really no way to incentivize compliance for the difficult few without invasive surveillance of the masses? Dumb parallel: Some people litter or jaywalk! We could probably address this by implanting GPS trackers in everybody, but... should we?
code_runner 3y ago
I think if I squint and turn my head a bit I can almost maybe see a semblance of a point to what you're trying to say.... but it doesn't really hold up for me at all. Learning isn't fun doesn't really relate to the fact that bodily functions exist. If a kid is well but going to the restroom for 30 minutes every class period and on their phone etc just skipping.... I guess punish that as if it were skipping? You can't just assume negative intent across the entire student body when it comes to checks notes pooping in a toilet like a person?
- wisty 3y ago
  So instead of a consistent system, teachers randomly punish kids for going to the bathroom if the teacher feels like the kid might be on their phone based on whether it seems to frequent?
  - educaysean 3y ago
    You mean like how our law enforcement works currently? Should the government all put trackers on our vehicles instead? It will consistently prevent things much worse than some students skipping class to go to the bathroom, like hit-and-runs.
  - code_runner 3y ago
    ummmmmmm I mean I guess you could at least try not caring how often a kid is relieving themselves.... you could absolutely make basic bodily functions into a "beat the clock" with a side of a consequences if you'd like though. I'd encourage you to run for your local school board if you feel passionately about this cause.
denton-scratch 3y ago
> Schools have to make kids do stuff that just isn't fun No. That is not the function of schools! Kids are full of energy and interest. A good teacher, combined with a well-designed syllabus and a good teaching plan, will then engage the kids. Of course, the lessons have to match the students' abilities. A HUGE mistake is to compel students to do work that they haven't learned how to do. This mistake was inflicted on me by my maths teacher at a good private school - nominally a very good maths teacher, author or contributor to a number of school maths textbooks. I routinely had my homework returned as "wrong", but I wasn't taught how to do it right. As a consequence, I suffered a 5-year-long mental block in maths. It sounds like Fresno schools are being run by concentration-camp commandants. [Edit] OK, so some kids aren't wide-eyed and keen to engage, whether because of earlier school experiences or because of other experiences. Why compel those kids to go to school at all? You can't force kids to study (no, not even with apps!), so why force them to go to school? I think that at least here in the UK, it's to do with keeping a lid on the numbers of unemployed; and with relieving working parents of childcare duties, so they can do jobs to pay their taxes.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  Don't know why I was downvoted. If school's about compelling students to do what they don't want to do, then obviously schools have to engage in coercive measures, like tracking apps and metal detectors. But why stop there? Why not go ahead and shackle them to their desks? Many US schools already have 20ft-high fences around them, like prisons. How is being imprisoned conducive to learning? Am I downvoted because people really think students are feral monsters, that need to be locked up whether they're learning or not? Is it possible that imprisoning schoolkids makes them more interested in escaping than learning? What kind of parent would send their kids to prison?

by wisty 3y ago

tokai 3y ago

There is a huge cap between 'learning isn't always fun' to 'breaking the human right to sanitation[0] will aid learning somehow'. [0] https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-water-and-sanitation/about-human-rights-water-and-sanitation https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-water-and-san...

wisty 3y ago
So to ensure students can use a bathroom if they really need to, but aren't abusing it to just take a break every class (missing maybe 25% of their class time? Say 15 minutes per hour class) you'd agree to something like an app to track it?
- educaysean 3y ago
  I'd never agree. What happens if I need more than 15 minutes? Will I be deemed a bad student because I simply need more time to do my business? What does this have to do with how I learn?
- tokai 3y ago
  No not at all. The idea is absurd. Even entertaining that it could be a solution is suspect. If students leave class too much they are marked as absent. It works many other places in the world, without having to do some creepy surveillance of kids bodily functions.
  - wisty 3y ago
    Are they marked absemt on some kind of app?
    - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
      We used to use a piece of paper called an "attendance sheet", with ruled lines on it. You can think of it as an excel-like app, with touchscreen stylus functionality and good battery life.
    - hn_acker 3y ago
      Not a teacher, but yes. The very same app that teachers use for grading, is my guess. The teacher does the attendance tracking. The app just records what the teacher puts into it. The teacher is free to take notes of when people leave and enter. If most of the class time has the students seated then a student walking around likely is very eyecatching. (What do blind teachers do? Roll call + the honor system is my first guess. Maybe handing out bathroom passes manually would be a viable Plan B.)
- pc86 3y ago
  How about you can use the bathroom when you need to, and if you actually find instances of students not using the bathroom, cutting class, etc. you address it by punishing those students. Give them detention. Make them have a chaperone at random times. Suspend them. Punish the behavior you want to regulate (lying about using the bathroom to goof off) and don't try to regulate unrelated and uncontrollable bodily functions.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    I don't disagree but the reason schools are turning to alternatives is because schools can't afford the labor to do those things.
    - code_runner 3y ago
      good point. lets get some bids on the "shit tracking app", pay for a seat for every student and then make sure we further stretch the teachers by giving them a special admin seat in said "shit tracking app" and making sure they punish over-shitters
      - kube-system 3y ago
        Students also have trouble using the restroom when the facilities are inoperable due to vandalism. There's not really a good solution. What is necessary is more staffing, but there is not enough labor available at the rates school districts are able to pay.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      > I don't disagree but the reason schools are turning to alternatives is because schools can't afford the labor to do those things. Hall monitors did this for generations.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        That would be the labor I'm referring to. The majority of US schools report struggling to hire paraprofessionals. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/how-bad-are-school-staffing-shortages-what-we-learned-by-asking-administrators/2021/10 https://www.edweek.org/leadership/how-bad-are-school-staffin...
- itishappy 3y ago
  Is there really no way to incentivize compliance for the difficult few without invasive surveillance of the masses? Dumb parallel: Some people litter or jaywalk! We could probably address this by implanting GPS trackers in everybody, but... should we?

code_runner 3y ago

I think if I squint and turn my head a bit I can almost maybe see a semblance of a point to what you're trying to say.... but it doesn't really hold up for me at all. Learning isn't fun doesn't really relate to the fact that bodily functions exist. If a kid is well but going to the restroom for 30 minutes every class period and on their phone etc just skipping.... I guess punish that as if it were skipping? You can't just assume negative intent across the entire student body when it comes to checks notes pooping in a toilet like a person?

wisty 3y ago
So instead of a consistent system, teachers randomly punish kids for going to the bathroom if the teacher feels like the kid might be on their phone based on whether it seems to frequent?
- educaysean 3y ago
  You mean like how our law enforcement works currently? Should the government all put trackers on our vehicles instead? It will consistently prevent things much worse than some students skipping class to go to the bathroom, like hit-and-runs.
- code_runner 3y ago
  ummmmmmm I mean I guess you could at least try not caring how often a kid is relieving themselves.... you could absolutely make basic bodily functions into a "beat the clock" with a side of a consequences if you'd like though. I'd encourage you to run for your local school board if you feel passionately about this cause.

denton-scratch 3y ago

> Schools have to make kids do stuff that just isn't fun No. That is not the function of schools! Kids are full of energy and interest. A good teacher, combined with a well-designed syllabus and a good teaching plan, will then engage the kids. Of course, the lessons have to match the students' abilities. A HUGE mistake is to compel students to do work that they haven't learned how to do. This mistake was inflicted on me by my maths teacher at a good private school - nominally a very good maths teacher, author or contributor to a number of school maths textbooks. I routinely had my homework returned as "wrong", but I wasn't taught how to do it right. As a consequence, I suffered a 5-year-long mental block in maths. It sounds like Fresno schools are being run by concentration-camp commandants. [Edit] OK, so some kids aren't wide-eyed and keen to engage, whether because of earlier school experiences or because of other experiences. Why compel those kids to go to school at all? You can't force kids to study (no, not even with apps!), so why force them to go to school? I think that at least here in the UK, it's to do with keeping a lid on the numbers of unemployed; and with relieving working parents of childcare duties, so they can do jobs to pay their taxes.

denton-scratch 3y ago
Don't know why I was downvoted. If school's about compelling students to do what they don't want to do, then obviously schools have to engage in coercive measures, like tracking apps and metal detectors. But why stop there? Why not go ahead and shackle them to their desks? Many US schools already have 20ft-high fences around them, like prisons. How is being imprisoned conducive to learning? Am I downvoted because people really think students are feral monsters, that need to be locked up whether they're learning or not? Is it possible that imprisoning schoolkids makes them more interested in escaping than learning? What kind of parent would send their kids to prison?