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Just to play devil's advocate 1. Livestock is a really good energy storage. In case of war, natural disaster crops diseases there is a backup. Most people that

Just to play devil's advocate 1. Livestock is a really good energy storage. In case of war, natural disaster crops diseases there is a backup. Most people that survived Holodomor, because the had cows. 2. No animal protein maybe bad for your health (meat is a different story) 3. Crops need a lot of herbicide

tpush 3y ago
2) Not true. 3) More livestock => more crops => more herbicide
eliaspro 3y ago
But if we wouldn't feed those crops to animals first to convert them to protein, but instead consumed them directly, we would need just a fraction of them and the herbicides required by them.
- TylerE 3y ago
  We can’t eat grass and hay. Cows do. They have multiple stomachs just to digest it.
  - eliaspro 3y ago
    The majority of cattle feed isn't hay or grass, but instead crops like Alfalfa or Soy. And in the end, it doesn't really matter, it's the underlying land use and it's impact that's relevant. The feed conversion ratio for beef has the worst efficiency of all kinds of meat of 1:25. This dataset by OWI is very enlightening when it comes to the types of our food and what kinds of different impact (landuse, animal feed, transport, ...) they have: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-supply-chain https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-supply-cha...
  - throwaway5752 3y ago
    Your point by itself is valid. But in a practical sense, that is not the diet of the cattle that comprise most of the American beef supply. https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/latest/blogs/what-do-cows-eat/ https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/latest/blogs/what-do-co... has data and citations. To summarize, 70% of dairy cattle feed is not hay or grass (soy, corn, distilling industry byproduct). That figure is 80% for beef cattle.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      That's because the US government heavily subsidizes corn and soy production for...reasons, not because it's even the most efficient way to go beef in an undistorted market.
Retric 3y ago
Your #1 is false. Grain crops store really well on their own, as in decades, cows on the other hand need to eat constantly. What they are good for is eating indigestible cellulose like corn stalks, but modern farming is largely feeding them grains specifically cultivated to feed them.
- bumby 3y ago
  >modern farming is largely feeding them grains specifically cultivated to feed them. In cattle at least, they spend much of their life grazing before going to feedlots.
  - awesomeideas 3y ago
    That's true for many, yes, but it's only true in terms of time, not number of calories needed.
    - indigobunting 3y ago
      The energy conversion ratio gives it in calories. About 1.9% for beef. https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#efficiency-of-meat-production https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#efficiency-of-mea...
      - Retric 3y ago
        I'm not seeing 1.9% and that sounds way off. US produces about 27 billion pounds of beef, roughly half of that weight comes from feedlots where they eat ~80% of feedlot calories comes from grains. There's a bunch of numbers tossed around but it's something like 60-70 billion pounds of grain to get those 27 billion pounds of beef.
      - bumby 3y ago
        This assumes humans could turn 100% of the feed into usable calories. Considering 1) the link defines feed to include grazing and 2) humans are 0% efficient at turning cellulose into calories, the quoted number probably doesn't mean what you think it means.
dralley 3y ago
1. The Holodomor wasn't a natural famine. People starved because the food was physically taken away from them and distributed elsewhere (like cities), starting with the grain. Once they ran out of grain and couldn't fill the (unreasonable from the start) quotas, they started taking away livestock also.
- ed_balls 3y ago
  Yep, I'd fall under war against Ukrainians. Cows can turn grass into milk and beef. Most families that had livestock survived. Those that lost it died. Source: Standford lecture on Youtube about Holodomor One of the main reasons why Mongols were so effective was use of livestock en mass. It gives you food, cavalry, transportation and clothes from grass. You get the shortest logistical supply chains in northern Eurasian plane.

tpush 3y ago

2) Not true. 3) More livestock => more crops => more herbicide

eliaspro 3y ago

But if we wouldn't feed those crops to animals first to convert them to protein, but instead consumed them directly, we would need just a fraction of them and the herbicides required by them.

TylerE 3y ago
We can’t eat grass and hay. Cows do. They have multiple stomachs just to digest it.
- eliaspro 3y ago
  The majority of cattle feed isn't hay or grass, but instead crops like Alfalfa or Soy. And in the end, it doesn't really matter, it's the underlying land use and it's impact that's relevant. The feed conversion ratio for beef has the worst efficiency of all kinds of meat of 1:25. This dataset by OWI is very enlightening when it comes to the types of our food and what kinds of different impact (landuse, animal feed, transport, ...) they have: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-supply-chain https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-supply-cha...
- throwaway5752 3y ago
  Your point by itself is valid. But in a practical sense, that is not the diet of the cattle that comprise most of the American beef supply. https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/latest/blogs/what-do-cows-eat/ https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/latest/blogs/what-do-co... has data and citations. To summarize, 70% of dairy cattle feed is not hay or grass (soy, corn, distilling industry byproduct). That figure is 80% for beef cattle.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    That's because the US government heavily subsidizes corn and soy production for...reasons, not because it's even the most efficient way to go beef in an undistorted market.

Retric 3y ago

Your #1 is false. Grain crops store really well on their own, as in decades, cows on the other hand need to eat constantly. What they are good for is eating indigestible cellulose like corn stalks, but modern farming is largely feeding them grains specifically cultivated to feed them.

bumby 3y ago
>modern farming is largely feeding them grains specifically cultivated to feed them. In cattle at least, they spend much of their life grazing before going to feedlots.
- awesomeideas 3y ago
  That's true for many, yes, but it's only true in terms of time, not number of calories needed.
  - indigobunting 3y ago
    The energy conversion ratio gives it in calories. About 1.9% for beef. https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#efficiency-of-meat-production https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#efficiency-of-mea...
    - Retric 3y ago
      I'm not seeing 1.9% and that sounds way off. US produces about 27 billion pounds of beef, roughly half of that weight comes from feedlots where they eat ~80% of feedlot calories comes from grains. There's a bunch of numbers tossed around but it's something like 60-70 billion pounds of grain to get those 27 billion pounds of beef.
    - bumby 3y ago
      This assumes humans could turn 100% of the feed into usable calories. Considering 1) the link defines feed to include grazing and 2) humans are 0% efficient at turning cellulose into calories, the quoted number probably doesn't mean what you think it means.

dralley 3y ago

1. The Holodomor wasn't a natural famine. People starved because the food was physically taken away from them and distributed elsewhere (like cities), starting with the grain. Once they ran out of grain and couldn't fill the (unreasonable from the start) quotas, they started taking away livestock also.

ed_balls 3y ago
Yep, I'd fall under war against Ukrainians. Cows can turn grass into milk and beef. Most families that had livestock survived. Those that lost it died. Source: Standford lecture on Youtube about Holodomor One of the main reasons why Mongols were so effective was use of livestock en mass. It gives you food, cavalry, transportation and clothes from grass. You get the shortest logistical supply chains in northern Eurasian plane.