4 ms·

The body is far more complex than simple thermodynamics however, and to pretend the dozens of biological feedback loops are fully under ones control betrays a l

by brnt 3y ago

The body is far more complex than simple thermodynamics however, and to pretend the dozens of biological feedback loops are fully under ones control betrays a lack of understanding. Reducing getting fat to thermodynamics is like reducing computing to adding numbers. While that may be the basic building block, only a fool thinks that merely by comprehension of the add operator, one is also able to debug hugely complicated soft- and hardware stacks.

pc86 3y ago
I actually like the computing and adding numbers analogy because "Sleep apnea makes people overweight" is the nutritional equivalent of saying "1 + 1 = hammer." The root cause of weight gain is either overeating or lack of sufficient exertion in almost every case. Sleep apnea may absolutely cause someone to overeat in part because of those dozens of biological feedback loops you mention. But that doesn't mean that sleep apnea makes people gain weight. It's still too much food at the end of the day.
- pkoird 3y ago
  I'd like to contribute by saying that even when you are sleeping, body burns calories for various neurobiological processes. That automatically translates to bad sleep equals decreased calorie utilization (than a healthy baseline)
- balfirevic 3y ago
  > It's still too much food at the end of the day. It's all four fundamental physical forces actually, if you want to go that route. Which isn't helpful.
- criddell 3y ago
  If overeating has causes, then it's not really a root cause.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dgfitz 3y ago
    By this logic, sleep apena doesn't make people gain weight either.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > But that doesn't mean that sleep apnea makes people gain weight I gather that you are unaware of how sleep apnea causes poor sleep, which in turn causes insulin resistance, which in turn causes an elevated production of insulin, which in turn forces glucose into your adipose tissue, which in turn makes the rest of your tissues starved for energy, which in turn causes you to be hungrier, overeat and gain weight. This is an oversimplification, of course, as there are hormones other than insulin and cortisol involved in the complex process of insulin resistance, but it is at least a starting point that goes beyond the useless truism that "people gain weight because they overeat". Of course they do, but the mechanisms why they are hungrier than they need to be are crucial if you want to address the problem, because in the long run every human being with free access to food will eat precisely until they are no longer hungry, whether or not they are metabolically healthy or not.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    But that’s not what he’s saying. Being hungry does not cause you to eat. Regardless of hunger, a caloric deficit will result in weight loss. There definitely is the issue of how to reliably maintain a caloric deficit when your body is screaming at you to eat more, but the underlying mechanism is much simpler. At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation. Eating 2,000 calories of oranges (45) is going to be a lot harder than 2,000 calories of fast food hamburgers (2).
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      The problem isn't that CICO isn't true, it's that it's not useful. It can't even explain why fat people are still hungry when they have enough calories stored in their bodies to last them for months. > Being hungry does not cause you to eat Yes, it does. That's why people eat: to alleviate hunger. You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. Metabolically healthy people aren't slim by being hungry all the time. They eat to satiety, and they are lucky enough that their satiety signalling is still working well enough. If you make them chronically hyperinsulinemic, they will be hungrier and they will gain weight -- it happens in humans and in animal models when allowed to eat ad libitum. > At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation As long as you are hyperinsulinemic, you will store a portion of the energy you consume in your adipose tissue, because that is one of the major effects of insulin in the body. The remaining energy left in you will not be sufficient to supply the energy needs of your body, and as a result you will be cold, tired and hungry.*
- jonhohle 3y ago
  I know you’re being downvoted into oblivion, but I agree. I’m not overweight, but had put on nearly 40lbs more than my historic average. There’s all kinds of advice, but the best I found was: the only way to lose weight is to have a caloric deficit. That meant measuring calories until I could generally estimate what I was taking in each day. 1000-1500 calories a day sucks at first, but seeing the scale drop is motivating. I dropped 30lbs in about 6 months. You can’t gain weight if you are taking in less calories than you expend. That’s pretty simple. Not eating that cheesecake, on the other hand, not so easy.
- Modified3019 3y ago
  >It's still too much food at the end of the day. The problem with that is you can reach a point were trying to reduce calories further will only further sabotage your metabolism and makes you feel like shit. Which is why treating the symptom repeatedly fails to work long term. I’m a 5’11” male who gained weight up to ~220 pounds on ~1800 calories eating a very consistent meal rotation. I now maintain ~190 pounds at ~2100 calories. My problem was likely a combination of my food acting as a chemical signal to gain weight (high in branch chain amino acids, polyunsaturated fats from fatty pork and chicken), work stress, bad sleep, and possibly even chronically elevated blood sugar or thyroid effects from essentially what was an almost carnivore one meal a day sort of diet. My body temperature was hitting lows of 96.3 degrees F. It’s now roughly two degrees higher, which seems small, but feels so much better.
bnralt 3y ago
I think one of the issues with this is that most people have pretty terrible diets, most people have pretty terrible diets that can be improved pretty easily, and when dietary improvements are suggested a lot of time the response is “this is just really complicated, it’s not that simple.” Not everything is simple, but, say, giving up soda is something that’s healthy and going to have a positive impact on people’s lives. People who are saying “don’t tell me to give up soda because I have sleep apnea” are looking for excuses for their bad habits. If someone is eating healthy foods and making a genuine effort to get good exercise, then we can talk about other factors. But too many people use “this is so complex” to avoid the very basics of healthy living.

by brnt 3y ago

pc86 3y ago

I actually like the computing and adding numbers analogy because "Sleep apnea makes people overweight" is the nutritional equivalent of saying "1 + 1 = hammer." The root cause of weight gain is either overeating or lack of sufficient exertion in almost every case. Sleep apnea may absolutely cause someone to overeat in part because of those dozens of biological feedback loops you mention. But that doesn't mean that sleep apnea makes people gain weight. It's still too much food at the end of the day.

pkoird 3y ago
I'd like to contribute by saying that even when you are sleeping, body burns calories for various neurobiological processes. That automatically translates to bad sleep equals decreased calorie utilization (than a healthy baseline)
balfirevic 3y ago
> It's still too much food at the end of the day. It's all four fundamental physical forces actually, if you want to go that route. Which isn't helpful.
criddell 3y ago
If overeating has causes, then it's not really a root cause.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dgfitz 3y ago
  By this logic, sleep apena doesn't make people gain weight either.
david-gpu 3y ago
> But that doesn't mean that sleep apnea makes people gain weight I gather that you are unaware of how sleep apnea causes poor sleep, which in turn causes insulin resistance, which in turn causes an elevated production of insulin, which in turn forces glucose into your adipose tissue, which in turn makes the rest of your tissues starved for energy, which in turn causes you to be hungrier, overeat and gain weight. This is an oversimplification, of course, as there are hormones other than insulin and cortisol involved in the complex process of insulin resistance, but it is at least a starting point that goes beyond the useless truism that "people gain weight because they overeat". Of course they do, but the mechanisms why they are hungrier than they need to be are crucial if you want to address the problem, because in the long run every human being with free access to food will eat precisely until they are no longer hungry, whether or not they are metabolically healthy or not.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  But that’s not what he’s saying. Being hungry does not cause you to eat. Regardless of hunger, a caloric deficit will result in weight loss. There definitely is the issue of how to reliably maintain a caloric deficit when your body is screaming at you to eat more, but the underlying mechanism is much simpler. At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation. Eating 2,000 calories of oranges (45) is going to be a lot harder than 2,000 calories of fast food hamburgers (2).
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    The problem isn't that CICO isn't true, it's that it's not useful. It can't even explain why fat people are still hungry when they have enough calories stored in their bodies to last them for months. > Being hungry does not cause you to eat Yes, it does. That's why people eat: to alleviate hunger. You may will power your way to a caloric deficit for some months, maybe a couple of years, but eventually hunger will win and you will eat until satiety. Metabolically healthy people aren't slim by being hungry all the time. They eat to satiety, and they are lucky enough that their satiety signalling is still working well enough. If you make them chronically hyperinsulinemic, they will be hungrier and they will gain weight -- it happens in humans and in animal models when allowed to eat ad libitum. > At the most basic levels, food choice doesn’t even really matter (specifically for weight loss, not general health), but choosing satiating foods with low calories is going to help with implementation As long as you are hyperinsulinemic, you will store a portion of the energy you consume in your adipose tissue, because that is one of the major effects of insulin in the body. The remaining energy left in you will not be sufficient to supply the energy needs of your body, and as a result you will be cold, tired and hungry.*
jonhohle 3y ago
I know you’re being downvoted into oblivion, but I agree. I’m not overweight, but had put on nearly 40lbs more than my historic average. There’s all kinds of advice, but the best I found was: the only way to lose weight is to have a caloric deficit. That meant measuring calories until I could generally estimate what I was taking in each day. 1000-1500 calories a day sucks at first, but seeing the scale drop is motivating. I dropped 30lbs in about 6 months. You can’t gain weight if you are taking in less calories than you expend. That’s pretty simple. Not eating that cheesecake, on the other hand, not so easy.
Modified3019 3y ago
>It's still too much food at the end of the day. The problem with that is you can reach a point were trying to reduce calories further will only further sabotage your metabolism and makes you feel like shit. Which is why treating the symptom repeatedly fails to work long term. I’m a 5’11” male who gained weight up to ~220 pounds on ~1800 calories eating a very consistent meal rotation. I now maintain ~190 pounds at ~2100 calories. My problem was likely a combination of my food acting as a chemical signal to gain weight (high in branch chain amino acids, polyunsaturated fats from fatty pork and chicken), work stress, bad sleep, and possibly even chronically elevated blood sugar or thyroid effects from essentially what was an almost carnivore one meal a day sort of diet. My body temperature was hitting lows of 96.3 degrees F. It’s now roughly two degrees higher, which seems small, but feels so much better.

bnralt 3y ago

I think one of the issues with this is that most people have pretty terrible diets, most people have pretty terrible diets that can be improved pretty easily, and when dietary improvements are suggested a lot of time the response is “this is just really complicated, it’s not that simple.” Not everything is simple, but, say, giving up soda is something that’s healthy and going to have a positive impact on people’s lives. People who are saying “don’t tell me to give up soda because I have sleep apnea” are looking for excuses for their bad habits. If someone is eating healthy foods and making a genuine effort to get good exercise, then we can talk about other factors. But too many people use “this is so complex” to avoid the very basics of healthy living.