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Thanks for sharing. Didn't know about this and I really think the Geneva conventions need an update to include this kind of thing.

by cowpig 3y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Why? Tell me a better way to fight an enemy that uses civilians as camouflage.
- feedforward 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hersko 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - feedforward 3y ago
      > The problem is that Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms Hamaa doesn't wear uniforms because Hamas is a political party. The al-Qassam Brigades do wear uniforms, as I have seen in GoPro and other footage from October 7th and after. There has been a blockade on Gaza for a decade so some don't get the full uniform, and make do with a headband and military fatigues instead.
      - hersko 3y ago
        I have not seen any videos of them wearing uniforms when engaging with Israeli troops after the 7th. I have seen plenty of videos of guys dressed as civilians firing mortars and rpgs.
        runarberg 3y ago
        Your logic would justify oct 7. Israeli operatives don’t always wear uniform either. Last January there was a high profile case of three Israeli solders dressing in Palestinian civilian clothing, infiltrating a hospital, and extrajudicially killing a patient. https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/30/middleeast/israel-undercover-raid-jenin-west-bank-hamas-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/30/middleeast/israel-undercover-... Refer to Chapter VI of the following report: Distorting humanitarian laws does not justify further crimes. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/a-hrc-55-73-auv.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies...
        hersko 3y ago
        The case you linked to is not in a warzone. That's a special forces raid in the west bank. That is nothing like urban warfare where your soldiers are dressed as the civilians that you purport to care about.
        runarberg 3y ago
        The point is not to find differences or similarities to when Israeli or Hamas operatives dress in civilian clothing while carrying out military action. Of course there will always be plenty of either. If that was my point, you could have simply accused me of whataboutism and left it at that. The point is that this excuse is a Humanitarian camouflage and does not justify atrocities, war crimes, nor apartheid. Francesca Albanese talks about this in detail in here report (Chapter VI, section A, paragraph 62; linked above): > Significant numbers of Palestinian civilians are defined as human shields simply by being in “proximity to” potential Israeli targets. Israel has thus transformed Gaza into a “world without civilians” in which “everything from taking shelter in hospitals to fleeing for safety is declared a form of human shielding”. The accusation of using human shields has thus become a pretext, justifying the killing of civilians under a cloak of purported legality. As well as section B of the same chapter appropriately titled Turning Gaza as a whole into a ‘military objective (paragraphs 63-67): > Israel has misused this rule [of legitimate military targets] to “militarize” civilian objects and whatever surrounds them, justifying their indiscriminate destruction. According to Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, “many ostensibly civilian objects may become legitimate targets”, losing their protection under IHL [International Humanitarian Law] or become “collateral” damage as a result of Hamas’s choice. > Protected civilian objects can lose their immunity from attacks if and for as long as they are used by combatants in hostilities. However, Israel considers any object that has allegedly been or might be used militarily as a legitimate target, so that entire neighbourhoods can be razed or demolished under fictions of legality. > Israel has thus de facto abolished the distinction between civilian objects and military objectives.
  - _djo_ 3y ago
    > Ten more Arabs attacked the World Trade Center - which as the 9/11 Commission and so on stated, had US military intelligence offices as well. Which US military intelligence offices were those? I don't recall anything of that sort from the 9/11 Commission report. There are also no active US military personnel listed amongst the fatalities from the WTC towers. And no, the same logic doesn't apply. Having a handful of military personnel inside civilian locations is not contrary to the rules of law; what would be is to locate bases, shooting positions, weapons storage, etc within primarily civilian facilities. That's something the US military, as with most militaries, doesn't do.
    - feedforward 3y ago
      > Which US military intelligence offices were those? I don't recall anything of that sort from the 9/11 Commission report. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-cia-lost-office-in-wtc/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-cia-lost-office-in-wtc/
      - _djo_ 3y ago
        The CIA is not the US military, so saying the towers 'had US military intelligence offices as well' is not an accurate statement. Further, a tiny office with a handful of intelligence personnel would not make the entire facility a legitimate target.
        skulk 3y ago
        > The CIA is not the US military. This distinction would be laughed at by a terrorist as pure sophistry.
        _djo_ 3y ago
        How is that relevant, and why would we care about how a terrorist would view it? By definition they're intentionally targeting civilians rather than military targets anyway. Where the distinction matters is both in terms of international law and the comment I replied to calling it a 'US military intelligence office'.
- bparsons 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    That's not very actionable by the guys on the ground.
    - guappa 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - gryzzly 3y ago
    what about when the neighbor is sending rockets at you and takes your citizens hostage?
    - guappa 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - hersko 3y ago
        [flagged]
- cowpig 3y ago
  I don't know a lot about this. But my first thought is better undercover, intelligence work? Follow through on citizenship deals for locals that cooperate with intelligence programs, grow & nurture those efforts. The biometric stuff just seems too dangerous to me, and unlike e.g. Nuclear arsenals, there's no peaceful game-theoretical equilibrium at MAD, I just see an extremely effective tool for the eradication of groups of people, and I don't trust human beings not to misuse that, especially with machine intelligence getting so powerful so fast. It all feels frighteningly unstable to me. edit: A perhaps more lucid way to explain what I mean: I am afraid of a world where the cost of eliminating a group of people is low enough that it outweighs the incentive to adapt & negotiate peaceful coexistence, even without what I see as an innate human bias towards destroying groups we don't like. Do violent, authoritarian regimes begin to gain an edge over peaceful, democratic ones?
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    I've met a NATO (non USA) soldier who has been doing intelligence work in Afghanistan. He said that the USA method is to go to some village, kill the head and say "now you have democracy, elect a new leader", and chaos ensues. While our way is "we build you a well and a road, let us know if someone comes to recruit young people". Of course since the USA soldiers are the most, their way is the one that happens more often.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      I've never seen this in any of the villages that I've been to, nor have I heard of this from people that I know.
- guappa 3y ago
  Why does it matter when every male adult killed in a drone strike is by definition a combatant? At this point you can just shoot at anyone and say "terrorist".
  - roynasser 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - guappa 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - roynasser 3y ago
        sure, it didnt start, but israel was "happy" defending itself from its neighbor shooting thousands of rockets each year... Yeah, it didnt start on oct 7th, but the escalation very much did. Actions have consequences, and a ceasefire was broken on Oct 7th... Let them resolve their issues now
        LtWorf 3y ago
        [flagged]
        rajishx 3y ago
        Afaik gaza doesn't have any israel settlement anymore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz... so I am not sure how you could say israeli were expanding in Gaza..
        runarberg 3y ago
        It is not clear at this point whether or not the current military activity will be followed with settlements. There are certainly calls for that among some Israelis, even among high ranking members of the Israeli government. We should take those seriously. Only weeks following oct 7. Netanyahu announced new settlements in the Gaza envelope, meaning the part of Israel within rocket range from Gaza. There have been documented cases of Israel expending the buffer zone on the Palestinian side of the boarder wall. I would certainly call that expansion, even though the settlements them selves are within Israel’s territory, their security infrastructure results in land being taken away from Palestine.

Thanks for sharing. Didn't know about this and I really think the Geneva conventions need an update to include this kind of thing.

by cowpig 3y ago

Thanks for sharing. Didn't know about this and I really think the Geneva conventions need an update to include this kind of thing.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

Why? Tell me a better way to fight an enemy that uses civilians as camouflage.

feedforward 3y ago
[flagged]
- hersko 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - feedforward 3y ago
    > The problem is that Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms Hamaa doesn't wear uniforms because Hamas is a political party. The al-Qassam Brigades do wear uniforms, as I have seen in GoPro and other footage from October 7th and after. There has been a blockade on Gaza for a decade so some don't get the full uniform, and make do with a headband and military fatigues instead.
    - hersko 3y ago
      I have not seen any videos of them wearing uniforms when engaging with Israeli troops after the 7th. I have seen plenty of videos of guys dressed as civilians firing mortars and rpgs.
      - runarberg 3y ago
        Your logic would justify oct 7. Israeli operatives don’t always wear uniform either. Last January there was a high profile case of three Israeli solders dressing in Palestinian civilian clothing, infiltrating a hospital, and extrajudicially killing a patient. https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/30/middleeast/israel-undercover-raid-jenin-west-bank-hamas-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/30/middleeast/israel-undercover-... Refer to Chapter VI of the following report: Distorting humanitarian laws does not justify further crimes. https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/a-hrc-55-73-auv.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies...
        hersko 3y ago
        The case you linked to is not in a warzone. That's a special forces raid in the west bank. That is nothing like urban warfare where your soldiers are dressed as the civilians that you purport to care about.
        runarberg 3y ago
        The point is not to find differences or similarities to when Israeli or Hamas operatives dress in civilian clothing while carrying out military action. Of course there will always be plenty of either. If that was my point, you could have simply accused me of whataboutism and left it at that. The point is that this excuse is a Humanitarian camouflage and does not justify atrocities, war crimes, nor apartheid. Francesca Albanese talks about this in detail in here report (Chapter VI, section A, paragraph 62; linked above): > Significant numbers of Palestinian civilians are defined as human shields simply by being in “proximity to” potential Israeli targets. Israel has thus transformed Gaza into a “world without civilians” in which “everything from taking shelter in hospitals to fleeing for safety is declared a form of human shielding”. The accusation of using human shields has thus become a pretext, justifying the killing of civilians under a cloak of purported legality. As well as section B of the same chapter appropriately titled Turning Gaza as a whole into a ‘military objective (paragraphs 63-67): > Israel has misused this rule [of legitimate military targets] to “militarize” civilian objects and whatever surrounds them, justifying their indiscriminate destruction. According to Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, “many ostensibly civilian objects may become legitimate targets”, losing their protection under IHL [International Humanitarian Law] or become “collateral” damage as a result of Hamas’s choice. > Protected civilian objects can lose their immunity from attacks if and for as long as they are used by combatants in hostilities. However, Israel considers any object that has allegedly been or might be used militarily as a legitimate target, so that entire neighbourhoods can be razed or demolished under fictions of legality. > Israel has thus de facto abolished the distinction between civilian objects and military objectives.
- _djo_ 3y ago
  > Ten more Arabs attacked the World Trade Center - which as the 9/11 Commission and so on stated, had US military intelligence offices as well. Which US military intelligence offices were those? I don't recall anything of that sort from the 9/11 Commission report. There are also no active US military personnel listed amongst the fatalities from the WTC towers. And no, the same logic doesn't apply. Having a handful of military personnel inside civilian locations is not contrary to the rules of law; what would be is to locate bases, shooting positions, weapons storage, etc within primarily civilian facilities. That's something the US military, as with most militaries, doesn't do.
  - feedforward 3y ago
    > Which US military intelligence offices were those? I don't recall anything of that sort from the 9/11 Commission report. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-cia-lost-office-in-wtc/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-cia-lost-office-in-wtc/
    - _djo_ 3y ago
      The CIA is not the US military, so saying the towers 'had US military intelligence offices as well' is not an accurate statement. Further, a tiny office with a handful of intelligence personnel would not make the entire facility a legitimate target.
      - skulk 3y ago
        > The CIA is not the US military. This distinction would be laughed at by a terrorist as pure sophistry.
        _djo_ 3y ago
        How is that relevant, and why would we care about how a terrorist would view it? By definition they're intentionally targeting civilians rather than military targets anyway. Where the distinction matters is both in terms of international law and the comment I replied to calling it a 'US military intelligence office'.
bparsons 3y ago
[flagged]
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  That's not very actionable by the guys on the ground.
  - guappa 3y ago
    [flagged]
- gryzzly 3y ago
  what about when the neighbor is sending rockets at you and takes your citizens hostage?
  - guappa 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hersko 3y ago
      [flagged]
cowpig 3y ago
I don't know a lot about this. But my first thought is better undercover, intelligence work? Follow through on citizenship deals for locals that cooperate with intelligence programs, grow & nurture those efforts. The biometric stuff just seems too dangerous to me, and unlike e.g. Nuclear arsenals, there's no peaceful game-theoretical equilibrium at MAD, I just see an extremely effective tool for the eradication of groups of people, and I don't trust human beings not to misuse that, especially with machine intelligence getting so powerful so fast. It all feels frighteningly unstable to me. edit: A perhaps more lucid way to explain what I mean: I am afraid of a world where the cost of eliminating a group of people is low enough that it outweighs the incentive to adapt & negotiate peaceful coexistence, even without what I see as an innate human bias towards destroying groups we don't like. Do violent, authoritarian regimes begin to gain an edge over peaceful, democratic ones?
- LtWorf 3y ago
  I've met a NATO (non USA) soldier who has been doing intelligence work in Afghanistan. He said that the USA method is to go to some village, kill the head and say "now you have democracy, elect a new leader", and chaos ensues. While our way is "we build you a well and a road, let us know if someone comes to recruit young people". Of course since the USA soldiers are the most, their way is the one that happens more often.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    I've never seen this in any of the villages that I've been to, nor have I heard of this from people that I know.
guappa 3y ago
Why does it matter when every male adult killed in a drone strike is by definition a combatant? At this point you can just shoot at anyone and say "terrorist".
- roynasser 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - guappa 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - roynasser 3y ago
      sure, it didnt start, but israel was "happy" defending itself from its neighbor shooting thousands of rockets each year... Yeah, it didnt start on oct 7th, but the escalation very much did. Actions have consequences, and a ceasefire was broken on Oct 7th... Let them resolve their issues now
      - LtWorf 3y ago
        [flagged]
        rajishx 3y ago
        Afaik gaza doesn't have any israel settlement anymore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz... so I am not sure how you could say israeli were expanding in Gaza..
        runarberg 3y ago
        It is not clear at this point whether or not the current military activity will be followed with settlements. There are certainly calls for that among some Israelis, even among high ranking members of the Israeli government. We should take those seriously. Only weeks following oct 7. Netanyahu announced new settlements in the Gaza envelope, meaning the part of Israel within rocket range from Gaza. There have been documented cases of Israel expending the buffer zone on the Palestinian side of the boarder wall. I would certainly call that expansion, even though the settlements them selves are within Israel’s territory, their security infrastructure results in land being taken away from Palestine.