4 ms·

I'm in the same shoes, and I often wonder why evution haven't solved this yet... Like, babies' chance of survival should drop if their parents are sleep deprive

I'm in the same shoes, and I often wonder why evution haven't solved this yet... Like, babies' chance of survival should drop if their parents are sleep deprived. There should be a selection pressure for well-sleeping babies. Or is it about ensuring that mom and dad don't make a sibling that takes away the baby's resources?

HumblyTossed 3y ago
> I'm in the same shoes, and I often wonder why evution haven't solved this yet It did! But we, in our infinite wisdom, got selfish and we now live alone. Fight nature and she fights back!
PaulHoule 3y ago
It is our own damn fault. Back in the day people slept with their kids and being close to their parents meant they felt secure and would (1) sleep through the night, and (2) if they needed any attention it would be easy to give it to them. Somebody invented the crib, got rich at our expense, and now people can't imagine life any other way.
- alex_duf 3y ago
  Isn't co-sleeping a significant cause of death though? So maybe our society traded sleep to get a higher survival rate
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    There are two versions of this story. "It's very safe to sleep with your baby unless you sleep with your baby drunk or on a small couch", and "It's very dangerous to sleep with your baby especially if you sleep with your baby drunk or on a small couch" That last bit is right and a study found "The risk associated with being found in the parental bed was not significant for older infants (>14 weeks) or for infants of parents who did not smoke and became non-significant after adjustment for recent maternal alcohol consumption..." See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28288/ Anyone who has shared a bed with a cat or small dog would note that you never roll over and crush it.
    - arkey 3y ago
      Thank you for this.
- lordswork 3y ago
  It's more of the fact that we discovered the scientific method and measured that cosleeping is statistically more likely to kill your child. Even if that increase % is small, it's enough for most (western) parents to make the tradeoff and suffer through sleep deprivation. And the tradeoff makes sense -- as a parent, you are biologically programmed to go through great lengths to keep your children safe.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    Some have made the case that “cry it out” is preparation for sitting there and suffering while you get bullied in school, while your group gets discriminated against, when employers treat you like a thing, or when politicians scapegoat and steal.
    - lordswork 3y ago
      This has nothing to do with the scientific method informing our parenting choices.
  - robocat 3y ago
    > biologically programmed You mean Socially programmed. Instincts are biological programming.
    - lordswork 3y ago
      I'd say you have instincts to protect your child.
  - marbartolome 3y ago
    Recent take of science is that co-sleeping is actually safer (reduces SIDS) if taking a couple of precautions. Parent under drugs/medications (including smoking) is mainly what drove the death statistics in cosleeping. Don't have links to studies but is what is teached in official parental education courses in spain atm.
    - 3y ago
- n4r9 3y ago
  All I can say is that doesn't jibe with our experience. We co-slept for the first 2-3 months, then had baby in a "next-to-me" for a few months, then moved baby to a crib in his own room at 6.5 months. Prior to being in their own room, the baby would usually wake up every 2-4 hours, with the very occasional 6-7 hour stretch. After going in his own room, his sleep began to consolidate and he would regularly last from 7-8pm to 4am without needing resettling. We have friends with a 4 year old daughter who co-slept until now and have just moved her to her own room. She wakes up screaming and needing attention most nights around midnight.
xyzelement 3y ago
As others are saying, how tired you are as a parent is a direct inverse function of: how far away your parents/inlaws live, how much they prioritize their grandchildren over boomer pastimes, and your relationship with them.
lr4444lr 3y ago
It did: live in extended family dwellings. The modern nuclear family (with 2 working spouses to boot) is the problem.
dgfitz 3y ago
I think that is part of the "it takes a village" saying. Communities/grandparents (of the baby) were all either in the same abode or most likely very close. Having run the same gamut three times, the best advice I ever got was: chunk sleep. Let the wife sleep for 4 straight hours, and then tag out, where the awake person sleeps if/when they can. I know nursing can gum this up, but either pumping, or just doing the formula thing, it's worth it.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
The current situation of 2 parents alone in a box (“house”) with baby is severely unnatural. I don’t think there is an evolutionary explanation because in this regard we are out of spec.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

> I'm in the same shoes, and I often wonder why evution haven't solved this yet It did! But we, in our infinite wisdom, got selfish and we now live alone. Fight nature and she fights back!

PaulHoule 3y ago

It is our own damn fault. Back in the day people slept with their kids and being close to their parents meant they felt secure and would (1) sleep through the night, and (2) if they needed any attention it would be easy to give it to them. Somebody invented the crib, got rich at our expense, and now people can't imagine life any other way.

alex_duf 3y ago
Isn't co-sleeping a significant cause of death though? So maybe our society traded sleep to get a higher survival rate
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  There are two versions of this story. "It's very safe to sleep with your baby unless you sleep with your baby drunk or on a small couch", and "It's very dangerous to sleep with your baby especially if you sleep with your baby drunk or on a small couch" That last bit is right and a study found "The risk associated with being found in the parental bed was not significant for older infants (>14 weeks) or for infants of parents who did not smoke and became non-significant after adjustment for recent maternal alcohol consumption..." See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28288/ Anyone who has shared a bed with a cat or small dog would note that you never roll over and crush it.
  - arkey 3y ago
    Thank you for this.
lordswork 3y ago
It's more of the fact that we discovered the scientific method and measured that cosleeping is statistically more likely to kill your child. Even if that increase % is small, it's enough for most (western) parents to make the tradeoff and suffer through sleep deprivation. And the tradeoff makes sense -- as a parent, you are biologically programmed to go through great lengths to keep your children safe.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  Some have made the case that “cry it out” is preparation for sitting there and suffering while you get bullied in school, while your group gets discriminated against, when employers treat you like a thing, or when politicians scapegoat and steal.
  - lordswork 3y ago
    This has nothing to do with the scientific method informing our parenting choices.
- robocat 3y ago
  > biologically programmed You mean Socially programmed. Instincts are biological programming.
  - lordswork 3y ago
    I'd say you have instincts to protect your child.
- marbartolome 3y ago
  Recent take of science is that co-sleeping is actually safer (reduces SIDS) if taking a couple of precautions. Parent under drugs/medications (including smoking) is mainly what drove the death statistics in cosleeping. Don't have links to studies but is what is teached in official parental education courses in spain atm.
  - 3y ago
n4r9 3y ago
All I can say is that doesn't jibe with our experience. We co-slept for the first 2-3 months, then had baby in a "next-to-me" for a few months, then moved baby to a crib in his own room at 6.5 months. Prior to being in their own room, the baby would usually wake up every 2-4 hours, with the very occasional 6-7 hour stretch. After going in his own room, his sleep began to consolidate and he would regularly last from 7-8pm to 4am without needing resettling. We have friends with a 4 year old daughter who co-slept until now and have just moved her to her own room. She wakes up screaming and needing attention most nights around midnight.

xyzelement 3y ago

As others are saying, how tired you are as a parent is a direct inverse function of: how far away your parents/inlaws live, how much they prioritize their grandchildren over boomer pastimes, and your relationship with them.

lr4444lr 3y ago

It did: live in extended family dwellings. The modern nuclear family (with 2 working spouses to boot) is the problem.

dgfitz 3y ago

I think that is part of the "it takes a village" saying. Communities/grandparents (of the baby) were all either in the same abode or most likely very close. Having run the same gamut three times, the best advice I ever got was: chunk sleep. Let the wife sleep for 4 straight hours, and then tag out, where the awake person sleeps if/when they can. I know nursing can gum this up, but either pumping, or just doing the formula thing, it's worth it.

pfannkuchen 3y ago

The current situation of 2 parents alone in a box (“house”) with baby is severely unnatural. I don’t think there is an evolutionary explanation because in this regard we are out of spec.