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TinyMCE provided a bit more information about this change in a GitHub discussion thread here: https://github.com/tinymce/tinymce/discussions/9496 https://github

TinyMCE provided a bit more information about this change in a GitHub discussion thread here: https://github.com/tinymce/tinymce/discussions/9496 https://github.com/tinymce/tinymce/discussions/9496 As I posted there, this directly affects my open source project which is heavily tied to TinyMCE so I may end up forking, and reducing down to what my project needs to reduce maintenance scope & burden. TinyMCE have been jumping around with their licensing. They were under LGPL, with some (what I believe were) misleading guidance into meeting the LGPL (they specified rules about keeping specific branding elements). They then jumped to MIT, and since moved some of the open plugins to their commercial offering. Now they're making this change.

mhitza 3y ago
I very briefly took a look at your project and seems to be an entire application, for which I'd expect TinyMCE would be a wrapper around input/textarea fields to add wysiwyg functionality. If that's the case, I (and no sane person/lawyer) would consider your project derivative work, thus except for the need to relicense the code as GPL. If you get that in written even better. Honestly a better choice for a library would always be LGPL. I don't know how TinyMCE even expects to monetize this thing...
- ssddanbrown 3y ago
  > Honestly a better choice for a library would always be LGPL. That's what they used originally, but I get the impression they want someone a little more forceful to move folks onto their commercial licenses. > I (and no sane person/lawyer) would consider your project derivative work, thus except for the need to relicense the code as GPL. I wouldn't consider it a derivative work either, but from what I know that does not matter. TinyMCE is a core part that we also currently distribute with the application. The technical details of GPL combined works can get fuzzy in these contexts as it seems like a lot of it was originally written for compiled code. There are ways we could maybe technically put it at "arms distance" but there are still considerations if users have to add that (currently core) element back in. It can help our distribution but the end result is kind of the same really. This may be more significant in my case since It's a core value to me that this project is very much "batteries included".
- kmacleod 3y ago
  Note that there are two ways to look at derivative works. You're describing a Venn diagram of two independent circles, LibraryA and AppB, and saying AppB does not use any code internally from LibA, share code, modify code from LibA, etc. From that perspective it's not deriving code from LibraryA. You're not wrong. The other view is two interlocking puzzle pieces, LibraryA and AppB. Can AppB function without LibA? Is there a standard library API that we can swap those libraries out? Can AppB be built or executed if LibA is not linked at build or runtime? GPL operates at this level and is why LGPL exists. If AppB requires LibA, AppB is derivative. If AppB does not link to LibA as distributed and can function without it, but links only at runtime on the user's system, AppB is not derivative.
Y_Y 3y ago
Would it be out of the question to relicense your project to GPL? I guess you want to allow people to use your work without releasing their source, but that's at odds with the fact that TinyMCE doesn't want that any more and you presumably rely on their work too. I certainly don't want to reopen any tired debates, I'm just interested in what the perspective of a downstream developer is like here.
- ssddanbrown 3y ago
  That's definitely an option, but I originally chose the MIT due to the simplicity & low friction/requirement for users, and for me it'd be a shame to change that, especially as it could impact users that have been using my software over the last 8 years. While I've gained a lot of understand & respect for GPL licenses over the years of being involved in open source, I'd still have a preference for MIT for this particular project for the reasons I originally chose it. Feels a bit annoying to change the licensing (and philosophy) of my project based upon a change from a dependency (but to be clear I respect their right to change license, and the value they've provided us to this point). Additionally, due to their licensing changes/hijinks over the years, I'm not overly confident there wouldn't be more changes ahead in favour of proprietary enterprise offerings.
  - c0l0 3y ago
    Unless your users are of the kind who re-distribute your work (or something containing/extending your work - mostly aka software developers) all the time, switching from MIT to GPL is going to be just about no hassle at all to them.
    - ssddanbrown 3y ago
      Yeah, it wouldn't affect most users, but some users will be in that group. Plus it may (stupidly) raise legal term alerts for a portion of users it won't affect. As I said, is an option but one with concerns/considerations as per my last comment.
  - panzi 3y ago

mhitza 3y ago

I very briefly took a look at your project and seems to be an entire application, for which I'd expect TinyMCE would be a wrapper around input/textarea fields to add wysiwyg functionality. If that's the case, I (and no sane person/lawyer) would consider your project derivative work, thus except for the need to relicense the code as GPL. If you get that in written even better. Honestly a better choice for a library would always be LGPL. I don't know how TinyMCE even expects to monetize this thing...

ssddanbrown 3y ago
> Honestly a better choice for a library would always be LGPL. That's what they used originally, but I get the impression they want someone a little more forceful to move folks onto their commercial licenses. > I (and no sane person/lawyer) would consider your project derivative work, thus except for the need to relicense the code as GPL. I wouldn't consider it a derivative work either, but from what I know that does not matter. TinyMCE is a core part that we also currently distribute with the application. The technical details of GPL combined works can get fuzzy in these contexts as it seems like a lot of it was originally written for compiled code. There are ways we could maybe technically put it at "arms distance" but there are still considerations if users have to add that (currently core) element back in. It can help our distribution but the end result is kind of the same really. This may be more significant in my case since It's a core value to me that this project is very much "batteries included".
kmacleod 3y ago
Note that there are two ways to look at derivative works. You're describing a Venn diagram of two independent circles, LibraryA and AppB, and saying AppB does not use any code internally from LibA, share code, modify code from LibA, etc. From that perspective it's not deriving code from LibraryA. You're not wrong. The other view is two interlocking puzzle pieces, LibraryA and AppB. Can AppB function without LibA? Is there a standard library API that we can swap those libraries out? Can AppB be built or executed if LibA is not linked at build or runtime? GPL operates at this level and is why LGPL exists. If AppB requires LibA, AppB is derivative. If AppB does not link to LibA as distributed and can function without it, but links only at runtime on the user's system, AppB is not derivative.

Y_Y 3y ago

Would it be out of the question to relicense your project to GPL? I guess you want to allow people to use your work without releasing their source, but that's at odds with the fact that TinyMCE doesn't want that any more and you presumably rely on their work too. I certainly don't want to reopen any tired debates, I'm just interested in what the perspective of a downstream developer is like here.

ssddanbrown 3y ago
That's definitely an option, but I originally chose the MIT due to the simplicity & low friction/requirement for users, and for me it'd be a shame to change that, especially as it could impact users that have been using my software over the last 8 years. While I've gained a lot of understand & respect for GPL licenses over the years of being involved in open source, I'd still have a preference for MIT for this particular project for the reasons I originally chose it. Feels a bit annoying to change the licensing (and philosophy) of my project based upon a change from a dependency (but to be clear I respect their right to change license, and the value they've provided us to this point). Additionally, due to their licensing changes/hijinks over the years, I'm not overly confident there wouldn't be more changes ahead in favour of proprietary enterprise offerings.
- c0l0 3y ago
  Unless your users are of the kind who re-distribute your work (or something containing/extending your work - mostly aka software developers) all the time, switching from MIT to GPL is going to be just about no hassle at all to them.
  - ssddanbrown 3y ago
    Yeah, it wouldn't affect most users, but some users will be in that group. Plus it may (stupidly) raise legal term alerts for a portion of users it won't affect. As I said, is an option but one with concerns/considerations as per my last comment.
- panzi 3y ago