4 ms·

We used to have strong unions that built a strong middle class. Now everyone's out for themselves and real wages are 1/3rd what they were for our grandparents.

We used to have strong unions that built a strong middle class. Now everyone's out for themselves and real wages are 1/3rd what they were for our grandparents. We have record numbers of the upper class, and fewer middle class each year. A lot of people want a middle class life and are seeing the connection between strong unified bargaining and their chances to become middle class.

senordevnyc 3y ago
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willcipriano 3y ago
Once you get a step further than that you'll realize that unions are another mechanism used to control labor[0] and that federal reserve policy on down is designed explicitly to suppress wages[1] so really the only solution is to make politicians fear the people again. [0]https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-signs-bill-block-us-railroad-strike-2022-12-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-signs-bill-block-us-r... (you aren't allowed to strike beacuse it will cost people money) [1-1]eg. 2% inflation target was originally suggested as it allowed employers to not give raises and lower their employee expenses over time [1-2]eg. interest rates were only raised once wages started ticking upward after decades of stagnation and decline, inflation in every other area of the marketplace wasn't a concern and you were labeled some sort of "inflation nut" if you mentioned it [1-3] now consider trade tariffs that encourage firms to offshore, lack of immigration enforcement creating a unlimited supply of low skill labor, use of below minimum wage prison labor to dilute the power of workers not in prison, welfare programs that subsidize low wage workers who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford working for a employer and you start to think this isn't just a happy accident for the capital class that the world is arranged in this very specific way benefitting them.
- kys_now 3y ago
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FredPret 3y ago
Everyone always has, and always will be, looking out for themselves. It’s biological. I agree that free markets plus free unionization can lead to great results (look at Sweden - no labour laws and strong unions and high wages). But this hankering for a catastrophically flawed social system (built-in hate for other classes?!) that depends on changing human nature and thus never works is even cringier than Ayn Rand-quoting teenagers who want no government at all.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Does Sweden really not have labor laws? I don't think the US created these laws just to be nice to people. Corporations were literally hiring private armies and killing people. So the people voted for laws. Maybe they seem antiquated now, but they did have a reason for being. And, if there is a class system, like if you are born rich, you get to be rich, if you are born poor you get to stay poor. Then it seems natural to start to dislike each other. How can you fault people born into poverty for disliking the people creating a system to keep them there?
  - MikePlacid 3y ago
    > if you are born rich, you get to be rich, if you are born poor you get to stay poor. I came to the US with $700 in debt. But I didn’t stay poor. >Then it seems natural to start to dislike each other. It may be natural, but it seems extremely counterproductive.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Labor laws are literally created because politicians are trying to win votes by being nice to at least some of the people. Democracy at work. I’d like to see some numbers for how many people are getting slaughtered in the streets by these roving private armies that have the keys to the city. And as for the class system, have a look at social mobility now versus 100 years ago vs 1000 years ago vs 10k years ago. Progress remains to be made, but society has never been more fluid and fair.
    - 3y ago
mschuster91 3y ago
> A lot of people want a middle class life and are seeing the connection between strong unified bargaining and their chances to become middle class. ... and the connection between post-Soviet rabid capitalism (I know, the onset of Thatcherism was before that - but only after the USSR collapsed, rabid capitalism really began to take up speed), globalization for goods but not people, and resulting widespread destruction in domestic low-level employment (mining, factories) also becomes more and more apparent.
- MikePlacid 3y ago
  Well, destruction of a competitor is always good for owners of the company, not for workers.

senordevnyc 3y ago

[dead]

willcipriano 3y ago

Once you get a step further than that you'll realize that unions are another mechanism used to control labor[0] and that federal reserve policy on down is designed explicitly to suppress wages[1] so really the only solution is to make politicians fear the people again. [0]https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-signs-bill-block-us-railroad-strike-2022-12-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-signs-bill-block-us-r... (you aren't allowed to strike beacuse it will cost people money) [1-1]eg. 2% inflation target was originally suggested as it allowed employers to not give raises and lower their employee expenses over time [1-2]eg. interest rates were only raised once wages started ticking upward after decades of stagnation and decline, inflation in every other area of the marketplace wasn't a concern and you were labeled some sort of "inflation nut" if you mentioned it [1-3] now consider trade tariffs that encourage firms to offshore, lack of immigration enforcement creating a unlimited supply of low skill labor, use of below minimum wage prison labor to dilute the power of workers not in prison, welfare programs that subsidize low wage workers who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford working for a employer and you start to think this isn't just a happy accident for the capital class that the world is arranged in this very specific way benefitting them.

kys_now 3y ago
[dead]

FredPret 3y ago

Everyone always has, and always will be, looking out for themselves. It’s biological. I agree that free markets plus free unionization can lead to great results (look at Sweden - no labour laws and strong unions and high wages). But this hankering for a catastrophically flawed social system (built-in hate for other classes?!) that depends on changing human nature and thus never works is even cringier than Ayn Rand-quoting teenagers who want no government at all.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Does Sweden really not have labor laws? I don't think the US created these laws just to be nice to people. Corporations were literally hiring private armies and killing people. So the people voted for laws. Maybe they seem antiquated now, but they did have a reason for being. And, if there is a class system, like if you are born rich, you get to be rich, if you are born poor you get to stay poor. Then it seems natural to start to dislike each other. How can you fault people born into poverty for disliking the people creating a system to keep them there?
- MikePlacid 3y ago
  > if you are born rich, you get to be rich, if you are born poor you get to stay poor. I came to the US with $700 in debt. But I didn’t stay poor. >Then it seems natural to start to dislike each other. It may be natural, but it seems extremely counterproductive.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Labor laws are literally created because politicians are trying to win votes by being nice to at least some of the people. Democracy at work. I’d like to see some numbers for how many people are getting slaughtered in the streets by these roving private armies that have the keys to the city. And as for the class system, have a look at social mobility now versus 100 years ago vs 1000 years ago vs 10k years ago. Progress remains to be made, but society has never been more fluid and fair.
  - 3y ago

mschuster91 3y ago

> A lot of people want a middle class life and are seeing the connection between strong unified bargaining and their chances to become middle class. ... and the connection between post-Soviet rabid capitalism (I know, the onset of Thatcherism was before that - but only after the USSR collapsed, rabid capitalism really began to take up speed), globalization for goods but not people, and resulting widespread destruction in domestic low-level employment (mining, factories) also becomes more and more apparent.

MikePlacid 3y ago
Well, destruction of a competitor is always good for owners of the company, not for workers.