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From one of the Reddit commenters: > Edit: As an EU customer, and having called my lawyer really quickly, we don't even think that this is legal / would hold u

From one of the Reddit commenters: > Edit: As an EU customer, and having called my lawyer really quickly, we don't even think that this is legal / would hold up in court in the EU. Also they'd have been required to summarise the TOS changes as by our local law. While companies can write whatever they want in their TOS, I would wary using the rights I just gave to myself. It can be devastating.

sam_goody 3y ago
If Vultr thinks they have the rights, they will use my data. The odds that they will ever be found out, that if found out they will be successfully sued, and that if that happens I will be made whole for whatever damage I have suffered, are slim. The clause implies it is in their mind that they can play these games. Better use a competitor that explicitly claims that you are renting the server for .. yourself. I don't use Google Compute, but wonder if their terms are better. It would not surprise me at all if you allow Google to crawl all of your Compute instances and combine that with data from their many other sources (Chrome, Chrome OS, Android services, DNS servers, analytics, usage on their properties such GMaps/Youtube, etc.)
vsnf 3y ago
I'm conflicted on comments like that. On one hand, companies make mistakes otherwise they'd never lose in court, but they do from time to time. On the other hand, Vultr has their own lawyers, presumably higher paid and better armed than an individual would have access to, so how confident can one be that their personal lawyer has a better legal theory than the corporate lawyers?
- lompad 3y ago
  Happens a lot, mostly when US Companies with a majority of their customers in the US make changes without thinking about other countries/ taking them seriously. Additionally, ToS really don't count for much in the EU, they're usually not enforcable anyway, if there's anything out of the ordinary at all. There's a whole lot of stuff in ToS nobody is ever going to be able to enforce at all. They probably expected to fly under the radar, without making sure it's even okay everywhere. Well, that's not going to happen I guess.
  - ehnto 3y ago
    I suppose it doesn't make a material difference if it's enforceable, since if you have personal data on their platform right now you have to assume it's been accessed or consumed in some form. They obviously had an inent to start using the data for something, and given what I know about tech businesses, I wouldn't assume they only started once the ToS change was made. I would consider my data compromised.
- doctor_eval 3y ago
  Well I think the Reddit commentator is probably right, but these TOS significantly increase the risk of using Vultr, regardless of the legality in whichever jurisdiction. The problem is that if Vultr really thinks it can exercise these rights, then there is a risk that proprietary information stored on their servers will be made public -- despite what EU or any other laws might say. It doesn't really matter if you can take them to court if Vultr causes a data leak that results in the loss all your customers. And most of us don't have the resources to be able to do that anyway. All of that said. I've found Vultr really good to work with and I am crossing my fingers, though not assuming, that this is a mistake. I've raised a ticket with them, and I'll give them a couple of weeks before I make plans to pull out. Fortunately I'm still in stealth mode and have zero customers, so I can afford to wait. I'd be absolutely freaking out right now if I had live customers.
  - madsbuch 3y ago
    I think this is insightful. What a company write in their TOS is an indication of what they intend to do. Broad scopes also means broad intentions (like startups). You could read into that, that Vultr is intending to break the law in the EU, however little there is to do about it. Its a liability for the customers knowing this. But it is also a liability for Vultr who will see it more difficult to establish in the EU, should that ever be wanted.
- yreg 3y ago
  It's not even about how much paid/skilled they are. The new ToS were surely a big project with tens of hours (or more) of research done for it. The redditor's lawyer just picked up a phone and offered some gut response. My lawyer friends are happy to share their thoughts, but they usually tell me that they need to do research to provide reliable guidance.

sam_goody 3y ago

If Vultr thinks they have the rights, they will use my data. The odds that they will ever be found out, that if found out they will be successfully sued, and that if that happens I will be made whole for whatever damage I have suffered, are slim. The clause implies it is in their mind that they can play these games. Better use a competitor that explicitly claims that you are renting the server for .. yourself. I don't use Google Compute, but wonder if their terms are better. It would not surprise me at all if you allow Google to crawl all of your Compute instances and combine that with data from their many other sources (Chrome, Chrome OS, Android services, DNS servers, analytics, usage on their properties such GMaps/Youtube, etc.)

vsnf 3y ago

I'm conflicted on comments like that. On one hand, companies make mistakes otherwise they'd never lose in court, but they do from time to time. On the other hand, Vultr has their own lawyers, presumably higher paid and better armed than an individual would have access to, so how confident can one be that their personal lawyer has a better legal theory than the corporate lawyers?

lompad 3y ago
Happens a lot, mostly when US Companies with a majority of their customers in the US make changes without thinking about other countries/ taking them seriously. Additionally, ToS really don't count for much in the EU, they're usually not enforcable anyway, if there's anything out of the ordinary at all. There's a whole lot of stuff in ToS nobody is ever going to be able to enforce at all. They probably expected to fly under the radar, without making sure it's even okay everywhere. Well, that's not going to happen I guess.
- ehnto 3y ago
  I suppose it doesn't make a material difference if it's enforceable, since if you have personal data on their platform right now you have to assume it's been accessed or consumed in some form. They obviously had an inent to start using the data for something, and given what I know about tech businesses, I wouldn't assume they only started once the ToS change was made. I would consider my data compromised.
doctor_eval 3y ago
Well I think the Reddit commentator is probably right, but these TOS significantly increase the risk of using Vultr, regardless of the legality in whichever jurisdiction. The problem is that if Vultr really thinks it can exercise these rights, then there is a risk that proprietary information stored on their servers will be made public -- despite what EU or any other laws might say. It doesn't really matter if you can take them to court if Vultr causes a data leak that results in the loss all your customers. And most of us don't have the resources to be able to do that anyway. All of that said. I've found Vultr really good to work with and I am crossing my fingers, though not assuming, that this is a mistake. I've raised a ticket with them, and I'll give them a couple of weeks before I make plans to pull out. Fortunately I'm still in stealth mode and have zero customers, so I can afford to wait. I'd be absolutely freaking out right now if I had live customers.
- madsbuch 3y ago
  I think this is insightful. What a company write in their TOS is an indication of what they intend to do. Broad scopes also means broad intentions (like startups). You could read into that, that Vultr is intending to break the law in the EU, however little there is to do about it. Its a liability for the customers knowing this. But it is also a liability for Vultr who will see it more difficult to establish in the EU, should that ever be wanted.
yreg 3y ago
It's not even about how much paid/skilled they are. The new ToS were surely a big project with tens of hours (or more) of research done for it. The redditor's lawyer just picked up a phone and offered some gut response. My lawyer friends are happy to share their thoughts, but they usually tell me that they need to do research to provide reliable guidance.