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We know perfectly well what we are doing. We are just in a system that tends to be dominated by emergent behavior. So.. we just can't predict the outcomes wi

We know perfectly well what we are doing. We are just in a system that tends to be dominated by emergent behavior. So.. we just can't predict the outcomes with any level of accuracy.

Intralexical 3y ago
"Emergent behavior" is just a fancy term for "too complicated for us to understand". Things you consider obvious would be considered "emergent" to somebody a bit dumber than you, and things you consider "emergent" would be considered obvious to somebody a bit smarter than you.
- npteljes 3y ago
  Not really. Emergent behavior is when the system's behavioral patterns are seemingly disconnected, not obviously derived from the fundamental rules. Emergent behavior is on a different "level" than the originally described actions and participants. Emergent behavior is crowd behavior vs individual psychology, biology and physics to chemistry. I agree on the part that these "levels" are not actually separated. It's just how us humans happen to think about things - one could say, it's an emergent behavior in itself that comes from how humans form abstract thought. But nevertheless emergence is a useful concept. And I also agree that we don't know what the fuck is going on. To be honest, I think that we can't know, that no human being ever can achieve complete understanding. And thus, we cannot really say that we're going to do something, and this and this will happen. We don't actually know, but we do manage.
- akira2501 3y ago
  It's a specific term with specific understanding, which you are attempting to redefine to fit your argument. This does not have anything to do with the intelligence of the beholder. For example, writing software, you can have two working parts of the system, that when operating in concert, produce incorrect results. It may be that you just failed to predict the invariant, or you misunderstood the timing, or changed some other small thing. In almost all cases, you can work backwards to discover the source of the behavior. This is what a "case study" is, and they're quite popular on this site. The danger with your mentality, I feel, is that telling someone "you don't know what you're doing" is very unlikely to alter their behavior. It's entirely ignorant of human nature. It's much more useful to explain to them why you believe they will fail in terms that don't belittle their intelligence. Sure, it's less of an edge for you to sharpen your wit against, but considering the subject matter, is this really the appropriate subject for scoring your own points?
- bregma 3y ago
  We used to use the terms "magic" and "science" for those concepts (consider Clarke's Law).
leansensei 3y ago
"We know perfectly well what we are doing"...? Whether meant literally or sarcastically, this is hubristic. We have imperfect knowledge of a complex system. We cannot know perfectly well what we are doing, even if "what we are doing" is a few serving their own interests.
- akira2501 3y ago
  It's meant to be taken in concert with the rest of the statement. It would be absolutely foolish to do anything if you can't predict the outcomes, regardless of how well versed and skilled you are in whatever art it is you are practicing. And yes.. you can know perfectly what you are doing. I'm sitting in a chair typing a comment. Are you suggesting that this is actually gnostic hubris on my part?
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > And yes.. you can know perfectly what you are doing. I'm sitting in a chair typing a comment. Are you suggesting that this is actually gnostic hubris on my part? I think you have inadvertently helped validate GP's point. They are clearly not talking about the level like that of sitting in a chair typing a comment. They are talking about the actual impact of what you are doing versus the intended impact. For example, I assume the intended impact of your sitting in a chair typing a comment, was to successfully influence the conversation by making a strong argument. However, things are a lot more complex than most humans can predict, therefore our actions can often have unintended consequences.
deleted 3y ago
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keepamovin 3y ago
Haha. I can read your comment as a joke, and if spoken in conversation in response, I think it would go down well :) But since I have a minute, it’s also fun, perhaps, to play around with the idea that you thought "we don't know what we're doing" wasn’t - but it is! - another way of stating the same thing that you say: that we don't understand the consequences of our actions. It’s interesting, because your rephrasing highlights the nuances of language, and the difference between literal and idiomatic, or perhaps more metaphorical interpretations. And even the differences between languages. It's likely to be very different in other languages, such as German, or Japanese, perhaps. But in English, the phrase, “you don't know what you're doing”, is most commonly used to mean: you do not understand the consequences of your actions; These will produce unintended effects, that will likely be different to your intended effects. In other words, the phrase I used, in English, almost always includes the situation that you describe, rather than the seemingly more literal interpretation of “You are not aware of, nor comprehend the very actions themselves, which you take or plan to take, regarding this thing”. It is fascinating to flip it around and see that idiomatic phrase through that more literal interpretation, that I’m assuming you made, whether for comic phrasing or not, mind! And curious to wonder how we came to have one meaning pointed to by the sign for the other. Although, due to the nuances of language, I can’t even be sure that it is to this more literal interpretation that you in fact are actually referring! It could be an even further far afield interpretation that has eluded me, and all the other commenters here thus far. The endless Fascinations of language! that’s probably why we rely on idiom. But no disparagement to you for, whether knowingly or not, trying something a little different. Haha! :)

We know perfectly well what we are doing. We are just in a system that tends to be dominated by emergent behavior. So.. we just can't predict the outcomes with any level of accuracy.

Intralexical 3y ago

"Emergent behavior" is just a fancy term for "too complicated for us to understand". Things you consider obvious would be considered "emergent" to somebody a bit dumber than you, and things you consider "emergent" would be considered obvious to somebody a bit smarter than you.

npteljes 3y ago
Not really. Emergent behavior is when the system's behavioral patterns are seemingly disconnected, not obviously derived from the fundamental rules. Emergent behavior is on a different "level" than the originally described actions and participants. Emergent behavior is crowd behavior vs individual psychology, biology and physics to chemistry. I agree on the part that these "levels" are not actually separated. It's just how us humans happen to think about things - one could say, it's an emergent behavior in itself that comes from how humans form abstract thought. But nevertheless emergence is a useful concept. And I also agree that we don't know what the fuck is going on. To be honest, I think that we can't know, that no human being ever can achieve complete understanding. And thus, we cannot really say that we're going to do something, and this and this will happen. We don't actually know, but we do manage.
akira2501 3y ago
It's a specific term with specific understanding, which you are attempting to redefine to fit your argument. This does not have anything to do with the intelligence of the beholder. For example, writing software, you can have two working parts of the system, that when operating in concert, produce incorrect results. It may be that you just failed to predict the invariant, or you misunderstood the timing, or changed some other small thing. In almost all cases, you can work backwards to discover the source of the behavior. This is what a "case study" is, and they're quite popular on this site. The danger with your mentality, I feel, is that telling someone "you don't know what you're doing" is very unlikely to alter their behavior. It's entirely ignorant of human nature. It's much more useful to explain to them why you believe they will fail in terms that don't belittle their intelligence. Sure, it's less of an edge for you to sharpen your wit against, but considering the subject matter, is this really the appropriate subject for scoring your own points?
bregma 3y ago
We used to use the terms "magic" and "science" for those concepts (consider Clarke's Law).

leansensei 3y ago

"We know perfectly well what we are doing"...? Whether meant literally or sarcastically, this is hubristic. We have imperfect knowledge of a complex system. We cannot know perfectly well what we are doing, even if "what we are doing" is a few serving their own interests.

akira2501 3y ago
It's meant to be taken in concert with the rest of the statement. It would be absolutely foolish to do anything if you can't predict the outcomes, regardless of how well versed and skilled you are in whatever art it is you are practicing. And yes.. you can know perfectly what you are doing. I'm sitting in a chair typing a comment. Are you suggesting that this is actually gnostic hubris on my part?
- freedomben 3y ago
  > And yes.. you can know perfectly what you are doing. I'm sitting in a chair typing a comment. Are you suggesting that this is actually gnostic hubris on my part? I think you have inadvertently helped validate GP's point. They are clearly not talking about the level like that of sitting in a chair typing a comment. They are talking about the actual impact of what you are doing versus the intended impact. For example, I assume the intended impact of your sitting in a chair typing a comment, was to successfully influence the conversation by making a strong argument. However, things are a lot more complex than most humans can predict, therefore our actions can often have unintended consequences.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

keepamovin 3y ago

Haha. I can read your comment as a joke, and if spoken in conversation in response, I think it would go down well :) But since I have a minute, it’s also fun, perhaps, to play around with the idea that you thought "we don't know what we're doing" wasn’t - but it is! - another way of stating the same thing that you say: that we don't understand the consequences of our actions. It’s interesting, because your rephrasing highlights the nuances of language, and the difference between literal and idiomatic, or perhaps more metaphorical interpretations. And even the differences between languages. It's likely to be very different in other languages, such as German, or Japanese, perhaps. But in English, the phrase, “you don't know what you're doing”, is most commonly used to mean: you do not understand the consequences of your actions; These will produce unintended effects, that will likely be different to your intended effects. In other words, the phrase I used, in English, almost always includes the situation that you describe, rather than the seemingly more literal interpretation of “You are not aware of, nor comprehend the very actions themselves, which you take or plan to take, regarding this thing”. It is fascinating to flip it around and see that idiomatic phrase through that more literal interpretation, that I’m assuming you made, whether for comic phrasing or not, mind! And curious to wonder how we came to have one meaning pointed to by the sign for the other. Although, due to the nuances of language, I can’t even be sure that it is to this more literal interpretation that you in fact are actually referring! It could be an even further far afield interpretation that has eluded me, and all the other commenters here thus far. The endless Fascinations of language! that’s probably why we rely on idiom. But no disparagement to you for, whether knowingly or not, trying something a little different. Haha! :)