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That's called stooping to their level. Yes, you can profit that way. But there are other ways to recoup that same profit, for example by being a better negotiat

by djao 3y ago

That's called stooping to their level. Yes, you can profit that way. But there are other ways to recoup that same profit, for example by being a better negotiator, or choosing a car that isn't sold through dealers and therefore is sold at a fixed price (as I mentioned in my original comment). I know dealers engage in deception to increase their profit. I would prefer not to do the same in my personal life. I want to live ethically and honestly.

mock-possum 3y ago
I agree with your last paragraph generally, but I absolutely do not agree that it applies to this situation - there’s nothing unethical about getting financing for a big purchase, then paying it off early with cash. You don’t have any responsibility to explain why you’re seeking financing when you could technically afford to buy it outright - that’s none of their business. Edit - nevermind, you explain your reasoning in other comments, though I still can’t empathize with it.
hnburnsy 3y ago
There is no deception, I believe the dealer makes mon ney when delivering the loan, they do not partake in the interest. The lending banks acccount for this in the offered terms. Some banks may claw back from the dealer when a loan is paid off quickly but I think that is rare.
- djao 3y ago
  Eh, look, I think there are times when you should withhold information and can do so ethically. If you really want something desperately in a negotiation, best not to let them know how desperate you are. But I don't feel that financing is one of those situations. If I know that I won't finance but I choose to lead the dealer to believe that I might finance, then the price I get in the end isn't the true price, it's the "price assuming I finance." The dealer won't be happy, and you know what they say about car buying -- you're buying the dealer as much as you're buying the car. Ever since Tesla has emerged as an alternative, there's just no point in going to a dealership anymore. Tesla doesn't care how I pay them.
  - hnburnsy 3y ago
    Agreed on the Tesla, on my second.
  - redbonsai 3y ago
    But then you have to drive a Tesla? Limiting the available cars you’re willing to purchase strictly to adhere to a perceived moral high ground feels incredibly naive to me. And privileged, tbh. Teslas are in no way affordable.
    - redserk 3y ago
      Who buys a car for themselves based on an arbitrary criteria of what other, unrelated people can afford? The person buying the car shouldn’t be shamed for prioritizing what they feel is important in the buying process. It’s being driven by the person buying the car, not the broader public.
    - djao 3y ago
      A Tesla costs less than an average new car in America. If Teslas are unaffordable, then so are other new cars. I also mentioned buying used cars. My approach in no way limits the range of cars available for me to purchase. If you don't like it, well, it's my life, not yours, and I detest the dealership experience. I get to live my life how I want. In a nation of entitled whiners, this is the one thing we are truly entitled to do. You can be different.
      - semiquaver 3y ago
        > A Tesla costs less than an average new car in America. If Teslas are unaffordable, then so are other new cars. Not if you compare apples to apples. The cheapest model 3 is significantly more expensive than a Toyota or Kia with equivalent seating and trim. People with kids will end up paying 90-100K for the model X vs minivans which are in the 35-40K range. Tesla has a luxury premium and it’s a bit silly to claim otherwise.
        djao 3y ago
schmookeeg 3y ago
Paying off a loan early is deceptive?
- djao 3y ago
  See my other comment above. If they sell you a car based on the assumption of financing profits, and you don't produce those financing profits for them, then yes, in my view, that is deceptive. Ten years ago, there was no real alternative. Now there is, so I just figuratively tell dealers to fuck off and take my business to a competitor that doesn't play deceptive pricing games.
  - fargle 3y ago
    that is an absolutely insane take. first of all, if a loan allows early payoff without a penalty, then it's your prerogative to take that option anytime you feel like it with absolutely no moral qualm. that's the point of written down contracts. you are under no obligation to discuss your future financial plans with the sales staff, nor what strategy you plan to take. they in turn are free to make any deal they wish, and if they offer a deal whereby you have an option, they have offered you a deal whereby you have an option. you don't need to lie, but it's really irrelevant because the only thing that matters is the contract - if either side actually cared about something that isn't written down, then shame on them. "assumptions" is no part of it. secondly, it factually just doesn't work that way. you could straight up tell them you want to pay it off tomorrow. they won't give a shit. if they "make money on the financing" via some incentive, they get paid when they close the loan regardless of when you pay it off. if you pay it off early they don't even know about it and could care less. and if the finance company cared, it wouldn't be an option or it would have a penalty. you don't need to, nor should you, "stoop to their level". simply go in, pick a car you like, tell them what you want to pay. if they say "there's a better price if you finance" then either take that deal, or counter-offer the same in cash, or don't and leave. if they say, sorry i can only do that if you finance, then either take the financed deal (sometimes the rates really are quite good) or ask if it has a prepayment penalty: "so, if i pay that off in full next month, there's no penalty and you still give me this price?". then make them show you in the paperwork where it says that. it's fine to not want to play games with deceptive dealers, but you are certainly under no moral or ethical obligation other than to hold up your end of whatever deal that is made.
quantified 3y ago
There is nothing dishonest about paying off a loan in one month. It's all fair in the contract.
- djao 3y ago
  By that token, there is nothing dishonest about a dealer selling you an extended warranty. It's all fair in the contract.
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  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Absolutely. You need to do some honest evaluation would it be fair deal for coverage and what is your risk tolerance.
    - djao 3y ago
      We then fundamentally disagree on the principles that comprise honesty and integrity. I do not agree that just because something is in a contract it is automatically honest and ethical.
      - ElevenLathe 3y ago
        Contract or not, almost anything you to do a car dealership is moral IMHO. Just as it is the first duty of a prisoner to escape, it is a consumer's duty to rip off all businesses (as distinct from real people) that you interact with, and dealerships are among the most reprehensible.
        djao 3y ago
        Even if you adopt that point of view, I still argue that not buying from a dealer at all is the best way to stick it to dealers, far better than becoming their customer and attempting to win at their game.
deleted 3y ago
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by djao 3y ago

mock-possum 3y ago

I agree with your last paragraph generally, but I absolutely do not agree that it applies to this situation - there’s nothing unethical about getting financing for a big purchase, then paying it off early with cash. You don’t have any responsibility to explain why you’re seeking financing when you could technically afford to buy it outright - that’s none of their business. Edit - nevermind, you explain your reasoning in other comments, though I still can’t empathize with it.

hnburnsy 3y ago

There is no deception, I believe the dealer makes mon ney when delivering the loan, they do not partake in the interest. The lending banks acccount for this in the offered terms. Some banks may claw back from the dealer when a loan is paid off quickly but I think that is rare.

djao 3y ago
Eh, look, I think there are times when you should withhold information and can do so ethically. If you really want something desperately in a negotiation, best not to let them know how desperate you are. But I don't feel that financing is one of those situations. If I know that I won't finance but I choose to lead the dealer to believe that I might finance, then the price I get in the end isn't the true price, it's the "price assuming I finance." The dealer won't be happy, and you know what they say about car buying -- you're buying the dealer as much as you're buying the car. Ever since Tesla has emerged as an alternative, there's just no point in going to a dealership anymore. Tesla doesn't care how I pay them.
- hnburnsy 3y ago
  Agreed on the Tesla, on my second.
- redbonsai 3y ago
  But then you have to drive a Tesla? Limiting the available cars you’re willing to purchase strictly to adhere to a perceived moral high ground feels incredibly naive to me. And privileged, tbh. Teslas are in no way affordable.
  - redserk 3y ago
    Who buys a car for themselves based on an arbitrary criteria of what other, unrelated people can afford? The person buying the car shouldn’t be shamed for prioritizing what they feel is important in the buying process. It’s being driven by the person buying the car, not the broader public.
  - djao 3y ago
    A Tesla costs less than an average new car in America. If Teslas are unaffordable, then so are other new cars. I also mentioned buying used cars. My approach in no way limits the range of cars available for me to purchase. If you don't like it, well, it's my life, not yours, and I detest the dealership experience. I get to live my life how I want. In a nation of entitled whiners, this is the one thing we are truly entitled to do. You can be different.
    - semiquaver 3y ago
      > A Tesla costs less than an average new car in America. If Teslas are unaffordable, then so are other new cars. Not if you compare apples to apples. The cheapest model 3 is significantly more expensive than a Toyota or Kia with equivalent seating and trim. People with kids will end up paying 90-100K for the model X vs minivans which are in the 35-40K range. Tesla has a luxury premium and it’s a bit silly to claim otherwise.
      - djao 3y ago

schmookeeg 3y ago

Paying off a loan early is deceptive?

djao 3y ago
See my other comment above. If they sell you a car based on the assumption of financing profits, and you don't produce those financing profits for them, then yes, in my view, that is deceptive. Ten years ago, there was no real alternative. Now there is, so I just figuratively tell dealers to fuck off and take my business to a competitor that doesn't play deceptive pricing games.
- fargle 3y ago
  that is an absolutely insane take. first of all, if a loan allows early payoff without a penalty, then it's your prerogative to take that option anytime you feel like it with absolutely no moral qualm. that's the point of written down contracts. you are under no obligation to discuss your future financial plans with the sales staff, nor what strategy you plan to take. they in turn are free to make any deal they wish, and if they offer a deal whereby you have an option, they have offered you a deal whereby you have an option. you don't need to lie, but it's really irrelevant because the only thing that matters is the contract - if either side actually cared about something that isn't written down, then shame on them. "assumptions" is no part of it. secondly, it factually just doesn't work that way. you could straight up tell them you want to pay it off tomorrow. they won't give a shit. if they "make money on the financing" via some incentive, they get paid when they close the loan regardless of when you pay it off. if you pay it off early they don't even know about it and could care less. and if the finance company cared, it wouldn't be an option or it would have a penalty. you don't need to, nor should you, "stoop to their level". simply go in, pick a car you like, tell them what you want to pay. if they say "there's a better price if you finance" then either take that deal, or counter-offer the same in cash, or don't and leave. if they say, sorry i can only do that if you finance, then either take the financed deal (sometimes the rates really are quite good) or ask if it has a prepayment penalty: "so, if i pay that off in full next month, there's no penalty and you still give me this price?". then make them show you in the paperwork where it says that. it's fine to not want to play games with deceptive dealers, but you are certainly under no moral or ethical obligation other than to hold up your end of whatever deal that is made.

quantified 3y ago

There is nothing dishonest about paying off a loan in one month. It's all fair in the contract.

djao 3y ago
By that token, there is nothing dishonest about a dealer selling you an extended warranty. It's all fair in the contract.
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- Ekaros 3y ago
  Absolutely. You need to do some honest evaluation would it be fair deal for coverage and what is your risk tolerance.
  - djao 3y ago
    We then fundamentally disagree on the principles that comprise honesty and integrity. I do not agree that just because something is in a contract it is automatically honest and ethical.
    - ElevenLathe 3y ago
      Contract or not, almost anything you to do a car dealership is moral IMHO. Just as it is the first duty of a prisoner to escape, it is a consumer's duty to rip off all businesses (as distinct from real people) that you interact with, and dealerships are among the most reprehensible.
      - djao 3y ago
        Even if you adopt that point of view, I still argue that not buying from a dealer at all is the best way to stick it to dealers, far better than becoming their customer and attempting to win at their game.

deleted 3y ago

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