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1. Cross out the upper left corner, the one that says "trade in". You're not trading in your old car. You're selling it private party for more money. 2. Cross

by djao 3y ago

1. Cross out the upper left corner, the one that says "trade in". You're not trading in your old car. You're selling it private party for more money. 2. Cross out the lower right corner, the one that says "monthly payment". You're not taking out a loan. You're paying cash. 3. Cross out the lower left corner, the one that says "down payment", and write 100%. You're not taking out a loan. You're paying cash. 4. All that's left is the price of the car. That is what you negotiate. (Although -- be careful about add-ons such as the $2000 rustproofing.) Some dealers won't take cash, because it eliminates their ability to engage in deception. If you encounter such a dealer, walk out. If they refuse to let you walk out, call the police. Tip: you can avoid 100% of dealer nonsense and idiocy by buying a car without going through a dealer. For new cars in the US, the only way to pull this off is to buy from Tesla or a few other boutique EV carmakers. The vast majority of carmakers have no sales channels for new cars other than dealers. You could of course always choose to buy a used car and avoid buying them from dealers.

LiquidPolymer 3y ago
This is pretty much my approach. I did buy a new jeep in 2017 but went through Costco car purchasing which has a fleet contract (I guess?) - because I was dealing with the fleet sale guy. We were able to get all the options we wanted, paid cash, came back two days later and picked it up. Painless.
- Cerium 3y ago
  I bought a Subaru with Costco as well a couple years ago. Super easy, walked in, was presented a price list for the vehicles I was interested in showing the total price. The price was slightly better than I thought I could negotiate for.
- quartesixte 3y ago
  Dealing with fleet sales in general is one of the better strategies and if you have the hookup with someone who deals with fleet dealers it can save you time and money. Pandemic market craziness made a lot of them not as good as they used to though.
Sparkle-san 3y ago
An auto loan isn't necessarily a bad move when you can often get one that is at a lower interest rate than what your cash will yield in a high interest savings account. For instance, you can get a 48 month loan on a civic at 3.9% and a 5.0% yield on that cash.
- djao 3y ago
  These are stupid games. Yes, if you have the cash to buy the car, you might consider playing stupid games. (But watch out for income taxes on that "5.0% yield". You might be playing for nothing.) If you don't have the cash, which is the case for the vast majority of people who take out auto loans, there is no possibility of playing the game anyway. Don't buy a car you can't afford. This isn't elitism or gatekeeping. Nobody needs a new car. We are on Hacker News. Compound interest is the ultimate financial life hack. Either you use it to your advantage, or other people use it to take advantage of you.
  - noirbot 3y ago
    I mean, out of college a while ago, I literally got a 0.5% APY car loan that my accountant told me I should, under no circumstances, pay down early. I bought a new car that I've essentially done nothing but do oil changes on for 10 years and I can essentially sell it for about what I paid for it 10 years ago and got compound interest on money I didn't have at the time, to buy a car that was essentially as cheap of a new car as I could get. It's not that it's likely, but you can do the math on if the rate offered is worthwhile. It's probably not the case now that rates aren't in the 0-1% ranges and there's a chance they'll go down in the future, but "getting a loan for 1% and then investing in something that gets 4%" is essentially the underpinning of the fractional reserve banking system that's making a lot of money. You may as well see if they'll let you get it.
  - SilasX 3y ago
    > These are stupid games. Yes, if you have the cash to buy the car, you might consider playing stupid games. Huh? You were the one advocating paying cash.
hnburnsy 3y ago
> 2. Cross out the lower right corner, the one that says "monthly payment". You're not taking out a loan. You're paying cash. > > 3. Cross out the lower left corner, the one that says "down payment", and write 100%. You're not taking out a loan. You're paying cash. Nope, if you have cash don't mention it, otherwise they will play hardball on the price since they now know they will not make money on the financing. Tell them you are willing to go with their financing if you can get the price down. Get the financing then immediately payoff the loan in the first month.
- djao 3y ago
  That's called stooping to their level. Yes, you can profit that way. But there are other ways to recoup that same profit, for example by being a better negotiator, or choosing a car that isn't sold through dealers and therefore is sold at a fixed price (as I mentioned in my original comment). I know dealers engage in deception to increase their profit. I would prefer not to do the same in my personal life. I want to live ethically and honestly.
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    I agree with your last paragraph generally, but I absolutely do not agree that it applies to this situation - there’s nothing unethical about getting financing for a big purchase, then paying it off early with cash. You don’t have any responsibility to explain why you’re seeking financing when you could technically afford to buy it outright - that’s none of their business. Edit - nevermind, you explain your reasoning in other comments, though I still can’t empathize with it.
  - hnburnsy 3y ago
    There is no deception, I believe the dealer makes mon ney when delivering the loan, they do not partake in the interest. The lending banks acccount for this in the offered terms. Some banks may claw back from the dealer when a loan is paid off quickly but I think that is rare.
    - djao 3y ago
webnrrd2k 3y ago
Autobytel used to be a great option to go directly to a fleet sales guy. I'd check them out, although you should definitely do your own research on this. used to work for them a long time ago.
pkulak 3y ago
No way am I selling my own car. Dealing with someone else’s financing paying off my financing. Letting people drive it around. Potentially sitting on it for months, losing money ever second it sits there. No thank you.
- djao 3y ago
  The first problem is automatically avoided if you didn't finance your car in the first place, as I am suggesting. For the rest, if you drive your car until it has lost all value, which is what I do, and typically takes 20 years, then there's no further loss of value no matter how long it sits, and the risk from people driving it around is also lowered. If you really don't want to go through any hassle, then just sell the car to a junkyard as the dealer won't offer any meaningful trade in on a junk car anyway.
opyate 3y ago
> add-ons such as the $2000 rustproofing I've only ever bought cars in UK and South Africa, and never once heard of a rust-proofing option. Must be hard work living in a country where you're always the victim of someone's hustle.
- rasz 3y ago
  TruCoat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2LLB9CGfLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2LLB9CGfLs
- djao 3y ago
  I've never bought cars in the UK, but as I understand it, the standard way to "buy" a car in the UK is not actually to buy one, but to lease it. Leasing is its own category of hustle, entirely different from purchasing.
  - opyate 3y ago
    I want to look into leasing. We bought an EV with cash, and the range have almost halved since we bought it. With lease, I guess I get a fresh car (and battery) every few years. And insurance is included. What kind of hustle can I expect with leasing? (I'll do some research when the time comes for the next car, as we're currently a 4-person 1-car family.)
    - djao 3y ago
      1. Leasing is like a car purchase but with mandatory financing where the true underlying interest rate can legally be obfuscated behind cryptic language that you can't understand. Quick -- is a "money factor" of 0.0074 an attractive interest rate? 2. Leasing is like a car purchase but with a mandatory trade-in (you are going to be trading back the car that you are leasing, at some point in the future when you return your lease). Unlike a normal trade-in, where you have your car as-is and you can ask around for its value, in a leasing situation you have to predict what the value of your car will be in five years. The dealers do this professionally. You do not. Guess who wins? 3. Leasing means it's not really your car. This is an issue most frequently for people who drive a large number of miles. Going over your mileage limit on a lease is very expensive. 4. If your circumstances change such that you need to exit your loan obligations by selling your car before fully paying off your contract, it's easier to sell your way out of a purchase / finance situation than a leasing situation. Ending your lease early is not an option, as car leases (unlike apartment leases) typically carry a heavy early cancellation penalty. 5. In places like the US, where leasing and purchasing are both possible, this enables a unique type of scam: a "sale" where the buyer thinks he's getting a purchase but the paperwork actually says it's a lease. So you're paying full price for the car and you don't get to keep the car in the end.

by djao 3y ago

LiquidPolymer 3y ago

This is pretty much my approach. I did buy a new jeep in 2017 but went through Costco car purchasing which has a fleet contract (I guess?) - because I was dealing with the fleet sale guy. We were able to get all the options we wanted, paid cash, came back two days later and picked it up. Painless.

Cerium 3y ago
I bought a Subaru with Costco as well a couple years ago. Super easy, walked in, was presented a price list for the vehicles I was interested in showing the total price. The price was slightly better than I thought I could negotiate for.
quartesixte 3y ago
Dealing with fleet sales in general is one of the better strategies and if you have the hookup with someone who deals with fleet dealers it can save you time and money. Pandemic market craziness made a lot of them not as good as they used to though.

Sparkle-san 3y ago

An auto loan isn't necessarily a bad move when you can often get one that is at a lower interest rate than what your cash will yield in a high interest savings account. For instance, you can get a 48 month loan on a civic at 3.9% and a 5.0% yield on that cash.

djao 3y ago
These are stupid games. Yes, if you have the cash to buy the car, you might consider playing stupid games. (But watch out for income taxes on that "5.0% yield". You might be playing for nothing.) If you don't have the cash, which is the case for the vast majority of people who take out auto loans, there is no possibility of playing the game anyway. Don't buy a car you can't afford. This isn't elitism or gatekeeping. Nobody needs a new car. We are on Hacker News. Compound interest is the ultimate financial life hack. Either you use it to your advantage, or other people use it to take advantage of you.
- noirbot 3y ago
  I mean, out of college a while ago, I literally got a 0.5% APY car loan that my accountant told me I should, under no circumstances, pay down early. I bought a new car that I've essentially done nothing but do oil changes on for 10 years and I can essentially sell it for about what I paid for it 10 years ago and got compound interest on money I didn't have at the time, to buy a car that was essentially as cheap of a new car as I could get. It's not that it's likely, but you can do the math on if the rate offered is worthwhile. It's probably not the case now that rates aren't in the 0-1% ranges and there's a chance they'll go down in the future, but "getting a loan for 1% and then investing in something that gets 4%" is essentially the underpinning of the fractional reserve banking system that's making a lot of money. You may as well see if they'll let you get it.
- SilasX 3y ago
  > These are stupid games. Yes, if you have the cash to buy the car, you might consider playing stupid games. Huh? You were the one advocating paying cash.

hnburnsy 3y ago

> 2. Cross out the lower right corner, the one that says "monthly payment". You're not taking out a loan. You're paying cash. > > 3. Cross out the lower left corner, the one that says "down payment", and write 100%. You're not taking out a loan. You're paying cash. Nope, if you have cash don't mention it, otherwise they will play hardball on the price since they now know they will not make money on the financing. Tell them you are willing to go with their financing if you can get the price down. Get the financing then immediately payoff the loan in the first month.

djao 3y ago
That's called stooping to their level. Yes, you can profit that way. But there are other ways to recoup that same profit, for example by being a better negotiator, or choosing a car that isn't sold through dealers and therefore is sold at a fixed price (as I mentioned in my original comment). I know dealers engage in deception to increase their profit. I would prefer not to do the same in my personal life. I want to live ethically and honestly.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  I agree with your last paragraph generally, but I absolutely do not agree that it applies to this situation - there’s nothing unethical about getting financing for a big purchase, then paying it off early with cash. You don’t have any responsibility to explain why you’re seeking financing when you could technically afford to buy it outright - that’s none of their business. Edit - nevermind, you explain your reasoning in other comments, though I still can’t empathize with it.
- hnburnsy 3y ago
  There is no deception, I believe the dealer makes mon ney when delivering the loan, they do not partake in the interest. The lending banks acccount for this in the offered terms. Some banks may claw back from the dealer when a loan is paid off quickly but I think that is rare.
  - djao 3y ago

webnrrd2k 3y ago

Autobytel used to be a great option to go directly to a fleet sales guy. I'd check them out, although you should definitely do your own research on this. used to work for them a long time ago.

pkulak 3y ago

No way am I selling my own car. Dealing with someone else’s financing paying off my financing. Letting people drive it around. Potentially sitting on it for months, losing money ever second it sits there. No thank you.

djao 3y ago
The first problem is automatically avoided if you didn't finance your car in the first place, as I am suggesting. For the rest, if you drive your car until it has lost all value, which is what I do, and typically takes 20 years, then there's no further loss of value no matter how long it sits, and the risk from people driving it around is also lowered. If you really don't want to go through any hassle, then just sell the car to a junkyard as the dealer won't offer any meaningful trade in on a junk car anyway.

opyate 3y ago

> add-ons such as the $2000 rustproofing I've only ever bought cars in UK and South Africa, and never once heard of a rust-proofing option. Must be hard work living in a country where you're always the victim of someone's hustle.

rasz 3y ago
TruCoat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2LLB9CGfLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2LLB9CGfLs
djao 3y ago
I've never bought cars in the UK, but as I understand it, the standard way to "buy" a car in the UK is not actually to buy one, but to lease it. Leasing is its own category of hustle, entirely different from purchasing.
- opyate 3y ago
  I want to look into leasing. We bought an EV with cash, and the range have almost halved since we bought it. With lease, I guess I get a fresh car (and battery) every few years. And insurance is included. What kind of hustle can I expect with leasing? (I'll do some research when the time comes for the next car, as we're currently a 4-person 1-car family.)
  - djao 3y ago
    1. Leasing is like a car purchase but with mandatory financing where the true underlying interest rate can legally be obfuscated behind cryptic language that you can't understand. Quick -- is a "money factor" of 0.0074 an attractive interest rate? 2. Leasing is like a car purchase but with a mandatory trade-in (you are going to be trading back the car that you are leasing, at some point in the future when you return your lease). Unlike a normal trade-in, where you have your car as-is and you can ask around for its value, in a leasing situation you have to predict what the value of your car will be in five years. The dealers do this professionally. You do not. Guess who wins? 3. Leasing means it's not really your car. This is an issue most frequently for people who drive a large number of miles. Going over your mileage limit on a lease is very expensive. 4. If your circumstances change such that you need to exit your loan obligations by selling your car before fully paying off your contract, it's easier to sell your way out of a purchase / finance situation than a leasing situation. Ending your lease early is not an option, as car leases (unlike apartment leases) typically carry a heavy early cancellation penalty. 5. In places like the US, where leasing and purchasing are both possible, this enables a unique type of scam: a "sale" where the buyer thinks he's getting a purchase but the paperwork actually says it's a lease. So you're paying full price for the car and you don't get to keep the car in the end.