5 ms·

How far is that from pre-existing products, like Quorn[1], which here in the UK is probably the main producer of vegan/vegetarian meat simulacra? The problem i

How far is that from pre-existing products, like Quorn[1], which here in the UK is probably the main producer of vegan/vegetarian meat simulacra? The problem is that people don't like eating straight fungus, and so it is serially transformed through elaborate processing, to create meat-like products. Which it turns out are extremely unhealthy. I think you are on more promising ground in your final remark. There are plenty of whole food plant-based sources of protein that are tested, economical and low-carbon, while possessing none of the health drawbacks of 'high tech' alternatives. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

samatman 3y ago
100g at 2.3g carbs, 1.7g fat, and 13g protein? What's extremely unhealthy about that?
- Emma_Goldman 3y ago
  Food, and therefore nutrition, is significantly more complicated than a ledger of macronutrients. In this particular case, I was getting at this: https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj-2023-077310 https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj-2023-077310
  - samatman 3y ago
    > Ultra-processed foods, as defined using the Nova food classification system, encompass a broad range of ready to eat products, including packaged snacks, carbonated soft drinks, instant noodles, and ready-made meals. I'm not seeing the relevance.
    - Emma_Goldman 3y ago
      The list of illustrative examples may be misleading you. It is a wide category. Look at the Nova classification, then look at the ingredients list of meat substitutes. There is no debate on this point. See also: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/12/quorn-revolution-rise-ultra-processed-fake-meat https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/12/quorn-r...
    - InSteady 3y ago
      Quorn and other meat substitutes most certainly fit the criteria of ultra-processed foods, and as such may be implicated in poor health outcomes if they make up a significant portion of one's diet.
      - hombre_fatal 3y ago
        We can do better than "it's processed so it's bad". The SWAP-MEAT trial concluded that processed alt-meat products improved health markers over animal meat: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32780794/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32780794/ > Among generally healthy adults, contrasting Plant with Animal intake, while keeping all other dietary components similar, the Plant products improved several cardiovascular disease risk factors, including TMAO; there were no adverse effects on risk factors from the Plant products.
- westurner 3y ago
  Are there other macronutrients in that much mass of food? 30g of Hemp Hearts (shelled hemp seeds) have 10g protein, 12g polyunsaturated fats (Omega 3 and 6), 1g sugar, and a bunch of other vitamins and minerals; but some brands have 2.3g Manganese (which 100% RDI) and Manganese toxicity occurs beyond 11mg (UL) and other brands don't have those nutrients listed on the nutrition facts label for their similar product: https://images.app.goo.gl/a2v9imfaWWyG5hSn8 https://images.app.goo.gl/a2v9imfaWWyG5hSn8 Flax has a better Omega 6:3 PUFA polyunsaturated fats ratio, but only 2g protein out of 11g. Manganese and MSG both have something to do with Glutamate, which apparently affects motivation; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35885204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35885204 : >> High glutamine-to-glutamate ratio predicts the ability to sustain motivation: The researchers found that individuals with a higher glutamine-to-glutamate ratio had a higher success rate and a lower perception of effort.
  - samatman 3y ago
    > Are there other macronutrients in that much mass of food? By convention, those three are the macronutrients. Dietary fibre is sometimes included, 100g of quorn mince has 7.5 g. The Wiki article has a detailed breakdown of the protein fraction by amino acid, but only breaks fats out into 'saturated' and 'not', which is reasonably common.
    - westurner 3y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34674644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34674644 : > Omega-3s and Omega-6s would be listed under "Polyunsaturated Fats" if it were allowed to list them on the standard Nutrition Facts label instead of elsewhere on the packaging. Maybe someone else should ask FDA to allow food labelers to optionally include a breakdown of PUFAs Polyunsaturated Fats into at least Omega 6 and Omega 3 next time there is a public comment register on Nutrition Facts labels. There may be more justifying research on Omegas' relevancy to health now?
  - InSteady 3y ago
    That is interesting about the manganese and glutamate-to-glutamine angle, although it's worth noting that manganese in foods has very poor bioavailability: Humans absorb only about 1% to 5% of dietary manganese. Infants and children tend to absorb greater amounts of manganese than adults. In addition, manganese absorption efficiency increases with low manganese intakes and decreases with higher intakes https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Manganese-HealthProfessional https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Manganese-HealthProfession... Another interesting tidbit from the links you provide, 90% of glutamine synthesis happens in muscle cells (from glutamate and ammonia). So in theory, building more muscle mass (while getting adequate dietary glutamine and glutamate) be beneficial for regulating glutamine-to-glutamate ratios. Although it doesn't look like this has been studied specifically as of yet. On the other hand, over-training and extreme endurance training without proper protein intake leads to depletion of circulating glutamine levels. It is suggested that depleted glutamine may be the cause of increased risks of infection and chronic fatigue during periods of over-training (even in elite athletes). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9562160/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9562160/
elevaet 3y ago
> people don't like eating straight fungus What do you mean? People love eating all kinds of mushrooms!
Aromasin 3y ago
It should be pointed out that most Quorn products aren't vegan. They use eggs as a binding agent.

samatman 3y ago

100g at 2.3g carbs, 1.7g fat, and 13g protein? What's extremely unhealthy about that?

Emma_Goldman 3y ago
Food, and therefore nutrition, is significantly more complicated than a ledger of macronutrients. In this particular case, I was getting at this: https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj-2023-077310 https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj-2023-077310
- samatman 3y ago
  > Ultra-processed foods, as defined using the Nova food classification system, encompass a broad range of ready to eat products, including packaged snacks, carbonated soft drinks, instant noodles, and ready-made meals. I'm not seeing the relevance.
  - Emma_Goldman 3y ago
    The list of illustrative examples may be misleading you. It is a wide category. Look at the Nova classification, then look at the ingredients list of meat substitutes. There is no debate on this point. See also: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/12/quorn-revolution-rise-ultra-processed-fake-meat https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/12/quorn-r...
  - InSteady 3y ago
    Quorn and other meat substitutes most certainly fit the criteria of ultra-processed foods, and as such may be implicated in poor health outcomes if they make up a significant portion of one's diet.
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      We can do better than "it's processed so it's bad". The SWAP-MEAT trial concluded that processed alt-meat products improved health markers over animal meat: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32780794/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32780794/ > Among generally healthy adults, contrasting Plant with Animal intake, while keeping all other dietary components similar, the Plant products improved several cardiovascular disease risk factors, including TMAO; there were no adverse effects on risk factors from the Plant products.
westurner 3y ago
Are there other macronutrients in that much mass of food? 30g of Hemp Hearts (shelled hemp seeds) have 10g protein, 12g polyunsaturated fats (Omega 3 and 6), 1g sugar, and a bunch of other vitamins and minerals; but some brands have 2.3g Manganese (which 100% RDI) and Manganese toxicity occurs beyond 11mg (UL) and other brands don't have those nutrients listed on the nutrition facts label for their similar product: https://images.app.goo.gl/a2v9imfaWWyG5hSn8 https://images.app.goo.gl/a2v9imfaWWyG5hSn8 Flax has a better Omega 6:3 PUFA polyunsaturated fats ratio, but only 2g protein out of 11g. Manganese and MSG both have something to do with Glutamate, which apparently affects motivation; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35885204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35885204 : >> High glutamine-to-glutamate ratio predicts the ability to sustain motivation: The researchers found that individuals with a higher glutamine-to-glutamate ratio had a higher success rate and a lower perception of effort.
- samatman 3y ago
  > Are there other macronutrients in that much mass of food? By convention, those three are the macronutrients. Dietary fibre is sometimes included, 100g of quorn mince has 7.5 g. The Wiki article has a detailed breakdown of the protein fraction by amino acid, but only breaks fats out into 'saturated' and 'not', which is reasonably common.
  - westurner 3y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34674644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34674644 : > Omega-3s and Omega-6s would be listed under "Polyunsaturated Fats" if it were allowed to list them on the standard Nutrition Facts label instead of elsewhere on the packaging. Maybe someone else should ask FDA to allow food labelers to optionally include a breakdown of PUFAs Polyunsaturated Fats into at least Omega 6 and Omega 3 next time there is a public comment register on Nutrition Facts labels. There may be more justifying research on Omegas' relevancy to health now?
- InSteady 3y ago
  That is interesting about the manganese and glutamate-to-glutamine angle, although it's worth noting that manganese in foods has very poor bioavailability: Humans absorb only about 1% to 5% of dietary manganese. Infants and children tend to absorb greater amounts of manganese than adults. In addition, manganese absorption efficiency increases with low manganese intakes and decreases with higher intakes https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Manganese-HealthProfessional https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Manganese-HealthProfession... Another interesting tidbit from the links you provide, 90% of glutamine synthesis happens in muscle cells (from glutamate and ammonia). So in theory, building more muscle mass (while getting adequate dietary glutamine and glutamate) be beneficial for regulating glutamine-to-glutamate ratios. Although it doesn't look like this has been studied specifically as of yet. On the other hand, over-training and extreme endurance training without proper protein intake leads to depletion of circulating glutamine levels. It is suggested that depleted glutamine may be the cause of increased risks of infection and chronic fatigue during periods of over-training (even in elite athletes). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9562160/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9562160/

elevaet 3y ago

> people don't like eating straight fungus What do you mean? People love eating all kinds of mushrooms!

Aromasin 3y ago

It should be pointed out that most Quorn products aren't vegan. They use eggs as a binding agent.