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Why? That may sound vaguely profound somehow but it’s just not true. Communities don’t have to be secular churches. A cycling club or a board games meetup or a

Why? That may sound vaguely profound somehow but it’s just not true. Communities don’t have to be secular churches. A cycling club or a board games meetup or a book club don’t have “faith”, just a shared focus and people who are willing to show up every week.

snapcaster 3y ago
But those groups (board games, book club) don't fulfill all the same social functions as church/religion. I tend to agree with you (people say it a lot without evidence) but I don't seem to see any examples out there contradicting it. For example, a lot of people seek out religious communities when raising children but I've never heard someone say that about their cycling club
- silverquiet 3y ago
  The talk about clubs made me think of "Fight Club" which within the story went on to be a sort of all-encompassing cult. In retrospect, it really wasn't all that subtle about the problem of nihilism in advanced societies.
zdragnar 3y ago
Churches are essentially tribes (i.e. shared identity) unified by a sense of purpose external to one's self. Cycling clubs and board games groups can bring people together, but they don't ask for the same kind of commitment or engender the same sense of shared identity. It isn't that they cannot substitute and create many of the benefits, but are unlikely to.
harimau777 3y ago
Something like a cycling or book club isn't going to have the deep connection, commitment to unconditional love, etc. that a healthy church has. Humans are emotional, physical, and (whether you interpret it as supernatural or not) spiritual creatures. The ritual and belief in something bigger than oneself are an essential part of the process. If you look at other organizations that serve similar roles to conventional churches (such as the Grangers, Freemasons, Shriners, The Lions Club, etc.) they all replicate the ritual and higher purpose commonly associated with churches.
- jxramos 3y ago
  this is an interesting thing to contemplate, the different degrees of sustaining power a community centers upon. If it centers upon trifling things the entropy of the community will just disband over that thing since it has no real drawing power for longevity. Centering upon less trifling more significant things more longevity. Centering upon the deepest things you find a bonding power to overcome the repulsions and noise and can cross the multigenerational barrier. I'll have to think about this somewhat.
  - binary132 3y ago
    There is actual hardwiring in the human being for religion.
    - Retric 3y ago
      It’s not that religion is hardwired, it’s that religions leveraged what’s already there. Like any good parasite they are simply well adapted to their prey.
barrysteve 3y ago
They're not communities, they're just activities that are attended by a friendship group. Church is way more meaningful than that. Baptisms, deaths, marriages are run by churches and the meaning can survive the majority of attendants not showing up. The problem in modern society, is teaching the meaning behind churches. It takes longer than a couple cycling classes and is more demanding on the spirit.

snapcaster 3y ago

But those groups (board games, book club) don't fulfill all the same social functions as church/religion. I tend to agree with you (people say it a lot without evidence) but I don't seem to see any examples out there contradicting it. For example, a lot of people seek out religious communities when raising children but I've never heard someone say that about their cycling club

silverquiet 3y ago
The talk about clubs made me think of "Fight Club" which within the story went on to be a sort of all-encompassing cult. In retrospect, it really wasn't all that subtle about the problem of nihilism in advanced societies.

zdragnar 3y ago

Churches are essentially tribes (i.e. shared identity) unified by a sense of purpose external to one's self. Cycling clubs and board games groups can bring people together, but they don't ask for the same kind of commitment or engender the same sense of shared identity. It isn't that they cannot substitute and create many of the benefits, but are unlikely to.

harimau777 3y ago

Something like a cycling or book club isn't going to have the deep connection, commitment to unconditional love, etc. that a healthy church has. Humans are emotional, physical, and (whether you interpret it as supernatural or not) spiritual creatures. The ritual and belief in something bigger than oneself are an essential part of the process. If you look at other organizations that serve similar roles to conventional churches (such as the Grangers, Freemasons, Shriners, The Lions Club, etc.) they all replicate the ritual and higher purpose commonly associated with churches.

jxramos 3y ago
this is an interesting thing to contemplate, the different degrees of sustaining power a community centers upon. If it centers upon trifling things the entropy of the community will just disband over that thing since it has no real drawing power for longevity. Centering upon less trifling more significant things more longevity. Centering upon the deepest things you find a bonding power to overcome the repulsions and noise and can cross the multigenerational barrier. I'll have to think about this somewhat.
- binary132 3y ago
  There is actual hardwiring in the human being for religion.
  - Retric 3y ago
    It’s not that religion is hardwired, it’s that religions leveraged what’s already there. Like any good parasite they are simply well adapted to their prey.

barrysteve 3y ago

They're not communities, they're just activities that are attended by a friendship group. Church is way more meaningful than that. Baptisms, deaths, marriages are run by churches and the meaning can survive the majority of attendants not showing up. The problem in modern society, is teaching the meaning behind churches. It takes longer than a couple cycling classes and is more demanding on the spirit.