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I was a local preacher in the Methodist church a long time ago, in Birmingham England. (There are more churches than ministers in the Methodist church so the ga

I was a local preacher in the Methodist church a long time ago, in Birmingham England. (There are more churches than ministers in the Methodist church so the gap is filled by laypeople who lead services on Sundays.) I remember in particular going to churches in the Black Country, home of the industrial revolution. Large churches from a time when they were far more attendees, many from the factories, but now holding just a handful of mostly elderly congregants. Even with such small numbers the singing was magnificent. I am sure almost all those congregations are gone now. Is it a loss? I don't know. I no longer have the faith I did then, but I did see the power of community, genuine concern for one another, and a deep faith expressed in a very specific understated way. It is something I still remember all these years later, and I haven't really seen it reproduced in other social environments.

tomrod 3y ago
We can build non-religious communities with good governance and inviting attendees. We desperately need it.
- toyg 3y ago
  Those communities still need some sort of faith to keep going. It doesn't have to be faith in supernatural gods; it could be in the destiny of mankind to surf the universe, or in the revolution of the proletariat, but it will still be a type of faith.
  - libraryofbabel 3y ago
    Why? That may sound vaguely profound somehow but it’s just not true. Communities don’t have to be secular churches. A cycling club or a board games meetup or a book club don’t have “faith”, just a shared focus and people who are willing to show up every week.
    - snapcaster 3y ago
      But those groups (board games, book club) don't fulfill all the same social functions as church/religion. I tend to agree with you (people say it a lot without evidence) but I don't seem to see any examples out there contradicting it. For example, a lot of people seek out religious communities when raising children but I've never heard someone say that about their cycling club
      - silverquiet 3y ago
        The talk about clubs made me think of "Fight Club" which within the story went on to be a sort of all-encompassing cult. In retrospect, it really wasn't all that subtle about the problem of nihilism in advanced societies.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      Churches are essentially tribes (i.e. shared identity) unified by a sense of purpose external to one's self. Cycling clubs and board games groups can bring people together, but they don't ask for the same kind of commitment or engender the same sense of shared identity. It isn't that they cannot substitute and create many of the benefits, but are unlikely to.
    - harimau777 3y ago
      Something like a cycling or book club isn't going to have the deep connection, commitment to unconditional love, etc. that a healthy church has. Humans are emotional, physical, and (whether you interpret it as supernatural or not) spiritual creatures. The ritual and belief in something bigger than oneself are an essential part of the process. If you look at other organizations that serve similar roles to conventional churches (such as the Grangers, Freemasons, Shriners, The Lions Club, etc.) they all replicate the ritual and higher purpose commonly associated with churches.
      - jxramos 3y ago
        this is an interesting thing to contemplate, the different degrees of sustaining power a community centers upon. If it centers upon trifling things the entropy of the community will just disband over that thing since it has no real drawing power for longevity. Centering upon less trifling more significant things more longevity. Centering upon the deepest things you find a bonding power to overcome the repulsions and noise and can cross the multigenerational barrier. I'll have to think about this somewhat.
        binary132 3y ago
        There is actual hardwiring in the human being for religion.
        Retric 3y ago
        It’s not that religion is hardwired, it’s that religions leveraged what’s already there. Like any good parasite they are simply well adapted to their prey.
    - barrysteve 3y ago
      They're not communities, they're just activities that are attended by a friendship group. Church is way more meaningful than that. Baptisms, deaths, marriages are run by churches and the meaning can survive the majority of attendants not showing up. The problem in modern society, is teaching the meaning behind churches. It takes longer than a couple cycling classes and is more demanding on the spirit.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - smackay 3y ago
    Shared purpose in some ways works better. It certainly can be fostered in the same ways that faith can. Sports works really well and "fringe" activities like birding bind people together really well. For example the solidarity among cyclists (the ones out and about in the countryside) here in Portugal is really strong. Pretty much everyone says hello and you can't stop on the side of the road or trail without everyone who passes asking if everything is ok.
    - toyg 3y ago
      If you think sports don't involve faith, I think you're being naive. Sports have rites, involve hopes for a better tomorrow, and carry belief in the social value of certain behaviours (the discipline). What powers the typical football club "factotum", showing up every week to cut the grass, inflate balls, wash shirts, clean changing rooms, etc etc...? What powers the cyclist agitating about the need for bike lanes, or proselitizing the sport? There is no seriously rational explanation. It's a type of faith.
- brodouevencode 3y ago
  Without an underlying morality driving it the efforts would be in vain.
- lenerdenator 3y ago
  I'm saying this as an agnostic who grew up in the UMC: All attempts to do this, particularly in the internet age, have failed spectacularly. They just turn into the worst parts of organized religion without the higher power. Remember the Reddit atheist movement of 10-15 years ago? A not-insignificant portion of that population went on to become the alt-right.
  - tempaway153751 3y ago
    Remember the Reddit atheist movement of 10-15 years ago? A not-insignificant portion of that population went on to become the alt-right. You're making an observation about the USA type of atheist here, and I'll leave that to you because I understand that in the USA atheists are an unusual thing. But I just want to point out that in the UK and many parts of Europe, being atheist is just very normal. Its so normal that there's not really a label or a scene, and there's also a lot of just agnostic/dont-really-ever-think-about-it type people that would probably be classed as atheist in the USA, but in the UK they're just <unlabelled> because no-one cares whether they believe in deities of some kind or not. And many people might say they are christian when asked (46%), but dont ever pray, or go to church. A lot of UK people have christian weddings and funerals, but thats about the sum total of their involvement. Only 8% of the UK are getting baptised, only about 5% go to church regularly. For example I see that in the USA its very important for politicians to talk about their faith, and if a politician is atheist it gets talked about as a 'thing'. In the UK its the exact opposite, the last thing we expect politicians to talk about is their faith in god, and if they do talk about it we get kindof weirded out (ref: Tony Blair in the late 90s). I just want to point that out, because I know the UK exported Dawkins and that might give people the wrong impression. Most of the UK are quiet-atheist or quiet-agnostic. And they are quiet because its no big deal, there's no political or moral stakes, no-one gets judged for being non-religious over here. (Even in politics, where you might expect political opponents to nit-pick everything about each other, no politician here would ever call out an opponent for being atheist, because it would just be a nonsensical thing to call out, and they would be laughed at for even trying to call it out)
    - lenerdenator 3y ago
- slongfield 3y ago
  The Unitarian Universalists exist. It's not really non-religious, but it is inviting to non-theist people, or those who don't otherwise believe in the supernatural. https://www.uua.org/beliefs https://www.uua.org/beliefs Full disclosure: I'm an atheist UU and a member of my church's board of trustees.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  There's some humanist communities out there that might fit the bill. But it's difficult to unite people.
- dillondoyle 3y ago
  I've thought about 'secular Sabbath.' Low or no technology, community, food, being self sustaining outdoors. There is a lot of appeal to some practices of the mountain Mennonite/amish in CO where I'm at. But a lot of those things that appeal to me, and trying to organize something like that, could quickly turn into a prepper cult ;0
- rsaarelm 3y ago
  People have been trying to do this for at least two hundred years, the Jefferson Bible was completed in 1820. We still can't point to any clear successes.
mprev 3y ago
Did you ever come across a minister named Holt in Gornal?
- martinpw 3y ago
  I don't remember that name, but it was a long time ago...
UncleOxidant 3y ago
Sounds like it must've been an interesting journey from there to here.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  It's a long road, even with faith of the heart.

tomrod 3y ago

We can build non-religious communities with good governance and inviting attendees. We desperately need it.

toyg 3y ago
Those communities still need some sort of faith to keep going. It doesn't have to be faith in supernatural gods; it could be in the destiny of mankind to surf the universe, or in the revolution of the proletariat, but it will still be a type of faith.
- libraryofbabel 3y ago
  Why? That may sound vaguely profound somehow but it’s just not true. Communities don’t have to be secular churches. A cycling club or a board games meetup or a book club don’t have “faith”, just a shared focus and people who are willing to show up every week.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    But those groups (board games, book club) don't fulfill all the same social functions as church/religion. I tend to agree with you (people say it a lot without evidence) but I don't seem to see any examples out there contradicting it. For example, a lot of people seek out religious communities when raising children but I've never heard someone say that about their cycling club
    - silverquiet 3y ago
      The talk about clubs made me think of "Fight Club" which within the story went on to be a sort of all-encompassing cult. In retrospect, it really wasn't all that subtle about the problem of nihilism in advanced societies.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Churches are essentially tribes (i.e. shared identity) unified by a sense of purpose external to one's self. Cycling clubs and board games groups can bring people together, but they don't ask for the same kind of commitment or engender the same sense of shared identity. It isn't that they cannot substitute and create many of the benefits, but are unlikely to.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Something like a cycling or book club isn't going to have the deep connection, commitment to unconditional love, etc. that a healthy church has. Humans are emotional, physical, and (whether you interpret it as supernatural or not) spiritual creatures. The ritual and belief in something bigger than oneself are an essential part of the process. If you look at other organizations that serve similar roles to conventional churches (such as the Grangers, Freemasons, Shriners, The Lions Club, etc.) they all replicate the ritual and higher purpose commonly associated with churches.
    - jxramos 3y ago
      this is an interesting thing to contemplate, the different degrees of sustaining power a community centers upon. If it centers upon trifling things the entropy of the community will just disband over that thing since it has no real drawing power for longevity. Centering upon less trifling more significant things more longevity. Centering upon the deepest things you find a bonding power to overcome the repulsions and noise and can cross the multigenerational barrier. I'll have to think about this somewhat.
      - binary132 3y ago
        There is actual hardwiring in the human being for religion.
        Retric 3y ago
        It’s not that religion is hardwired, it’s that religions leveraged what’s already there. Like any good parasite they are simply well adapted to their prey.
  - barrysteve 3y ago
    They're not communities, they're just activities that are attended by a friendship group. Church is way more meaningful than that. Baptisms, deaths, marriages are run by churches and the meaning can survive the majority of attendants not showing up. The problem in modern society, is teaching the meaning behind churches. It takes longer than a couple cycling classes and is more demanding on the spirit.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- smackay 3y ago
  Shared purpose in some ways works better. It certainly can be fostered in the same ways that faith can. Sports works really well and "fringe" activities like birding bind people together really well. For example the solidarity among cyclists (the ones out and about in the countryside) here in Portugal is really strong. Pretty much everyone says hello and you can't stop on the side of the road or trail without everyone who passes asking if everything is ok.
  - toyg 3y ago
    If you think sports don't involve faith, I think you're being naive. Sports have rites, involve hopes for a better tomorrow, and carry belief in the social value of certain behaviours (the discipline). What powers the typical football club "factotum", showing up every week to cut the grass, inflate balls, wash shirts, clean changing rooms, etc etc...? What powers the cyclist agitating about the need for bike lanes, or proselitizing the sport? There is no seriously rational explanation. It's a type of faith.
brodouevencode 3y ago
Without an underlying morality driving it the efforts would be in vain.
lenerdenator 3y ago
I'm saying this as an agnostic who grew up in the UMC: All attempts to do this, particularly in the internet age, have failed spectacularly. They just turn into the worst parts of organized religion without the higher power. Remember the Reddit atheist movement of 10-15 years ago? A not-insignificant portion of that population went on to become the alt-right.
- tempaway153751 3y ago
  Remember the Reddit atheist movement of 10-15 years ago? A not-insignificant portion of that population went on to become the alt-right. You're making an observation about the USA type of atheist here, and I'll leave that to you because I understand that in the USA atheists are an unusual thing. But I just want to point out that in the UK and many parts of Europe, being atheist is just very normal. Its so normal that there's not really a label or a scene, and there's also a lot of just agnostic/dont-really-ever-think-about-it type people that would probably be classed as atheist in the USA, but in the UK they're just <unlabelled> because no-one cares whether they believe in deities of some kind or not. And many people might say they are christian when asked (46%), but dont ever pray, or go to church. A lot of UK people have christian weddings and funerals, but thats about the sum total of their involvement. Only 8% of the UK are getting baptised, only about 5% go to church regularly. For example I see that in the USA its very important for politicians to talk about their faith, and if a politician is atheist it gets talked about as a 'thing'. In the UK its the exact opposite, the last thing we expect politicians to talk about is their faith in god, and if they do talk about it we get kindof weirded out (ref: Tony Blair in the late 90s). I just want to point that out, because I know the UK exported Dawkins and that might give people the wrong impression. Most of the UK are quiet-atheist or quiet-agnostic. And they are quiet because its no big deal, there's no political or moral stakes, no-one gets judged for being non-religious over here. (Even in politics, where you might expect political opponents to nit-pick everything about each other, no politician here would ever call out an opponent for being atheist, because it would just be a nonsensical thing to call out, and they would be laughed at for even trying to call it out)
  - lenerdenator 3y ago
slongfield 3y ago
The Unitarian Universalists exist. It's not really non-religious, but it is inviting to non-theist people, or those who don't otherwise believe in the supernatural. https://www.uua.org/beliefs https://www.uua.org/beliefs Full disclosure: I'm an atheist UU and a member of my church's board of trustees.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
There's some humanist communities out there that might fit the bill. But it's difficult to unite people.
dillondoyle 3y ago
I've thought about 'secular Sabbath.' Low or no technology, community, food, being self sustaining outdoors. There is a lot of appeal to some practices of the mountain Mennonite/amish in CO where I'm at. But a lot of those things that appeal to me, and trying to organize something like that, could quickly turn into a prepper cult ;0
rsaarelm 3y ago
People have been trying to do this for at least two hundred years, the Jefferson Bible was completed in 1820. We still can't point to any clear successes.

mprev 3y ago

Did you ever come across a minister named Holt in Gornal?

martinpw 3y ago
I don't remember that name, but it was a long time ago...

UncleOxidant 3y ago

Sounds like it must've been an interesting journey from there to here.

crooked-v 3y ago
It's a long road, even with faith of the heart.