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> my experience with a 40ft sailboat with a single propeller you have absolutely no rudder authority while reversing. I have to protest here. Reversing and us

> my experience with a 40ft sailboat with a single propeller you have absolutely no rudder authority while reversing. I have to protest here. Reversing and using the rudder on a 40ft boat works perfectly fine. I've done it on multiple sailing boats. You need to hold tight so that the rudder wont slap you if using a stick.

jcgrillo 3y ago
If you have enough way on to combat the prop walk, yes. But in a situation like backing down trying to come to a stop (at least in my boat, a 1962 Block Island 40) there's a very long "dead time" while transitioning from slowly moving forward to slowly moving in reverse where the rudder just doesn't do anything. The way I maneuver in these situations is to do all my heading corrections in forward gear, where prop wash over the rudder gives it authority. So it's a game of shots of reverse, corrections, rinse, repeat. EDIT: also planning ahead is important, because if I do it right the prop walk in reverse can be used advantageously. Also, with the BI-40's barn door rudder it'll slap you through the wheel if you're not careful. Almost broke my leg that way, not a lesson to forget.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Nice boat! Ye it does not look too nimble in harbours. Somewhere over 40ft with "light" boats is where I feel you get into the "you got one chance" harbour manouvers (unless there is some front sideways motor cheating). It happens something that I really can't explain, but I guess it is weight related. Or maybe area. Dunno.
  - jcgrillo 3y ago
    Yeah it's right around 20000lb displacement, so momentum is a real thing ;). The fiberglass is over 2" thick at the keel tapering to a mere 1" at the hull to deck joint. Decks are solid glass as well. At the time it was a newfangled material and they were scared of it so they used a lot. Also, the bow seems to catch the wind really hard so you can get spun around if it's blowing and you head off the wind too much without enough way on. Leave room, plan ahead, have a backup plan, etc.
jameshart 3y ago
Isn’t there a pretty big difference in how much rudder authority you get between just making way astern, and having the engine in full reverse while still traveling forwards at seven knots?
- efitz 3y ago
  It's complicated. The rudder is a wing, it's just vertically oriented and underwater. The rudder is capable of stalling, just like any wing. The rudder only produces lift related to the flow of water over the rudder. The lift produced by the rudder is what is experienced as turning force. The tiller or wheel changes the angle of attack. I used to helm a racing sailboat with a high aspect (long & narrow) rudder. It could provide a lot of turning force but stalled easily. It didn't work as well under power as it did under sail; I suspect this was due to the turbulent flow off of the propeller, which was forward of the rudder. On the Dali, the rudder should have been providing some turning force due to the 7+ knot flow of water over the rudder. Full reverse propeller might have impacted that; I can't comment because I've never helmed a ship that large. Additionally, a single-propeller vessel like the Dali, will have "prop walk" - asymmetric thrust that pushes the stern of the craft one way or the other while the propeller is rotating.
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    I'm only a minimally experienced (coastal cruising) sailor so there's plenty of things I don't know, but this is the first time I've heard the rudder as a wing (lifting surface) rather than as a neutral control surface. It sort of makes high-level sense that a lifting bias could in theory work as a counteraction to propwalk. But the terminology is a bit confusing because aerodynamic lift is a byproduct of air being a compressible medium, whereas water is not. Maybe lift means something different when we're talking about water? At any rate in scenarios where the prop is not engaged, which in a sailboat is most of them, I don't think I've ever noticed a tendency for heading to track predominantly one way or the other, in circumstances where it seems that would be very pronounced and hard to miss, like extended running downwind. Is the lifting body rudder mainly a performance boat thing? Or perhaps am I just so used to trimming this bias out that I don't recognize where it's coming from?
serf 3y ago
>I have to protest here. Reversing and using the rudder on a 40ft boat works perfectly fine. I've done it on multiple sailing boats. You need to hold tight so that the rudder wont slap you if using a stick. this is a stupid argument from all users , comparing a 40ft sailboat to other 40ft sailboats is like making a broad assumption about cars when comparing a dragster to an SUV simply because they have a similar singular aspect. ANY sailboat, regardless of size, can have poor reversing performance just simply due to its hull shape and rudder plan. Some boats famously cannot reverse with authority due to the turbulence created between the parts. Some boats use feathering propellers which collapse inwards when reverse is applied in order to make a more efficient sailing experience, which effectively makes propulsion reversing useless. There is NO generalized '40 foot sailboat' in existence. They all act different, and there are some that are perfectly capable of doing what other 40 foot plans might consider IMPOSSIBLE.

jcgrillo 3y ago

If you have enough way on to combat the prop walk, yes. But in a situation like backing down trying to come to a stop (at least in my boat, a 1962 Block Island 40) there's a very long "dead time" while transitioning from slowly moving forward to slowly moving in reverse where the rudder just doesn't do anything. The way I maneuver in these situations is to do all my heading corrections in forward gear, where prop wash over the rudder gives it authority. So it's a game of shots of reverse, corrections, rinse, repeat. EDIT: also planning ahead is important, because if I do it right the prop walk in reverse can be used advantageously. Also, with the BI-40's barn door rudder it'll slap you through the wheel if you're not careful. Almost broke my leg that way, not a lesson to forget.

rightbyte 3y ago
Nice boat! Ye it does not look too nimble in harbours. Somewhere over 40ft with "light" boats is where I feel you get into the "you got one chance" harbour manouvers (unless there is some front sideways motor cheating). It happens something that I really can't explain, but I guess it is weight related. Or maybe area. Dunno.
- jcgrillo 3y ago
  Yeah it's right around 20000lb displacement, so momentum is a real thing ;). The fiberglass is over 2" thick at the keel tapering to a mere 1" at the hull to deck joint. Decks are solid glass as well. At the time it was a newfangled material and they were scared of it so they used a lot. Also, the bow seems to catch the wind really hard so you can get spun around if it's blowing and you head off the wind too much without enough way on. Leave room, plan ahead, have a backup plan, etc.

jameshart 3y ago

Isn’t there a pretty big difference in how much rudder authority you get between just making way astern, and having the engine in full reverse while still traveling forwards at seven knots?

efitz 3y ago
It's complicated. The rudder is a wing, it's just vertically oriented and underwater. The rudder is capable of stalling, just like any wing. The rudder only produces lift related to the flow of water over the rudder. The lift produced by the rudder is what is experienced as turning force. The tiller or wheel changes the angle of attack. I used to helm a racing sailboat with a high aspect (long & narrow) rudder. It could provide a lot of turning force but stalled easily. It didn't work as well under power as it did under sail; I suspect this was due to the turbulent flow off of the propeller, which was forward of the rudder. On the Dali, the rudder should have been providing some turning force due to the 7+ knot flow of water over the rudder. Full reverse propeller might have impacted that; I can't comment because I've never helmed a ship that large. Additionally, a single-propeller vessel like the Dali, will have "prop walk" - asymmetric thrust that pushes the stern of the craft one way or the other while the propeller is rotating.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  I'm only a minimally experienced (coastal cruising) sailor so there's plenty of things I don't know, but this is the first time I've heard the rudder as a wing (lifting surface) rather than as a neutral control surface. It sort of makes high-level sense that a lifting bias could in theory work as a counteraction to propwalk. But the terminology is a bit confusing because aerodynamic lift is a byproduct of air being a compressible medium, whereas water is not. Maybe lift means something different when we're talking about water? At any rate in scenarios where the prop is not engaged, which in a sailboat is most of them, I don't think I've ever noticed a tendency for heading to track predominantly one way or the other, in circumstances where it seems that would be very pronounced and hard to miss, like extended running downwind. Is the lifting body rudder mainly a performance boat thing? Or perhaps am I just so used to trimming this bias out that I don't recognize where it's coming from?

serf 3y ago

>I have to protest here. Reversing and using the rudder on a 40ft boat works perfectly fine. I've done it on multiple sailing boats. You need to hold tight so that the rudder wont slap you if using a stick. this is a stupid argument from all users , comparing a 40ft sailboat to other 40ft sailboats is like making a broad assumption about cars when comparing a dragster to an SUV simply because they have a similar singular aspect. ANY sailboat, regardless of size, can have poor reversing performance just simply due to its hull shape and rudder plan. Some boats famously cannot reverse with authority due to the turbulence created between the parts. Some boats use feathering propellers which collapse inwards when reverse is applied in order to make a more efficient sailing experience, which effectively makes propulsion reversing useless. There is NO generalized '40 foot sailboat' in existence. They all act different, and there are some that are perfectly capable of doing what other 40 foot plans might consider IMPOSSIBLE.