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How common are power outages on ships? I get that the captain might not have responded to it correctly but that seems like a thing that shouldn't happen, at lea

How common are power outages on ships? I get that the captain might not have responded to it correctly but that seems like a thing that shouldn't happen, at least in my completely uneducated opinion.

NaviNick 3y ago
The American courts should hit Maersk really really hard financially and get them to foot the bill for all losses of the bridge collapse. Shipping companies should not be driving vessels of these huge tonnages with such poor levels of redundancy and poor levels of manning. It is insane for a 100,000 tonne vessel, that takes so long to stop due to its incredible inertia, that can find itself many thousands of miles from land, to rely on one engine, one gearbox, one shaft and one rudder; without sufficient secondary and tertiary back-up systems. Why was there no battery back-up, or motor on the shaft? Surely the bow thrusters should have a battery back-up to stop such a lurch to starboard. How can all of the generation and all electrical busbars fail at once? Even if the fuel was bad, surely the generators should draw on separate fuel tanks. For such a large and relatively modern ship to suffer a total power failure is complete corporate incompetence. If, as some allege, the refrigeration containers were causing problems, and total power outages occurring before sailing, the vessel should not have sailed, certainly at night. If this is the case, The Master needs locking up. But, poor man has to take the blame, because he is cheaper than a Danish Master and his Singaporean employer (if he is employed and not a contractor) also operating in a cheaper flag state than Denmark. The Singaporean Company also needs hitting hard if the culture was the cause of the Captain sailing after such alleged pre-sailing power outages. Maersk outsource to reduce personnel and running costs. They use the cheapest crews, cheapest ships and need hitting very very very hard. We might then stop this culture of wealthy shipping companies using every method possible to avoid complying with IMO and more rigorous Nation State standards, operating in the shadows and ducking accountability and responsibility.
paddy_m 3y ago
It shouldn't happen. There will be investigations. I think that having a properly operating ship is the captain's responsibility. But the ship's pilot [1] (not captain) should know exactly how the boat will handle and the exact course of action. Pilots are extremely well paid ($200-$400k) and the tests are very stringent. Friends have told me that the Narraganset Bay pilot test involves drawing every shipping navigation bouy on a map by hand to within ~200 yards from memory alone, compass, ruler and scaled map provided.
- Joker_vD 3y ago
  Where do you get those salary numbers from? The info about this "Dali" ship is not private: [0], and it lists the master's salary as $10,200 per month. [0] https://www.balticshipping.com/vessel/imo/9697428/seafarers https://www.balticshipping.com/vessel/imo/9697428/seafarers
  - TylerE 3y ago
    The pilot is employed by the port/government, not the ship. They drive to just outside the entrance, then they get off onto a tugboat or some other small utility vessel.
    - CalChris 3y ago
      Harbor pilots are licensed by the state (Maryland) require a degree from one of the maritime colleges, deck license, …, are represented by a pilots union (Association of Maryland Pilots) but are employed independently.
  - emilyst 3y ago
    I believe the parent comment is referring to the harbor pilot job specifically.
  - shagie 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot#Compensation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot#Compensation > The Florida Alliance of Maritime Organizations reported that Florida pilots' annual salaries range from US$100,000 to US$400,000, on par with other US states that have large ports. Columbia Bar pilots earn approximately US$180,000 per year. A 2008 review of pilot salaries in the United States showed that pay ranged from about US$250,000 to over US$500,000 per year.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      Columbia Bar pilots are grossly underpaid.
jordanb 3y ago
According to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tankship-Tromedy-Impending-Disasters-Tankers/dp/0977647900 https://www.amazon.com/Tankship-Tromedy-Impending-Disasters-... It is quite common and vessels often have outages that leave them Not Under Command. Usually they are safely at sea when this happens and they can drift for hours without causing problems. But of course there's always a possibility of it happening at exactly the wrong moment. The reasons for this are the usual: lack of redundancy, lack of maintenance, overworked and understaffed crews, etc. etc. The book lays out how ships are pretty much designed to be floating disasters and the Class societies (essentially privatized regulators) are in the pockets of the builders, and they are so captured that they make rules that make it difficult to make safe vessels. For instance, he was trying to design multi-screw vessels but the rules now assume single-screwed ships and it can be impossible to design in additional shaft alleys and still conform.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  It wouldn't help with this accident, but you would think that the electronics would be on batteries. It wouldn't be too hard to have rack of batteries that would power the lights, instruments, radios, and sensors. Doesn't help if the propulsion or steering go out, but does make easier to know whats going on.
  - myself248 3y ago
    At least in small craft, bow thrusters are usually electric, with local batteries charged from the main engine room. I don't know what large craft are like, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that a bow thruster may remain operable even if the main engine fails. Clearly that's not required or they would've had it and used it, but it could be required if the regulations didn't suck. Furthermore, steering could absolutely have an electric backup for the hydraulic pumps that power the main steering gear. As long as there's some forward speed through the water, the rudder should work. But again, backups clearly aren't required or they would've worked here. Steer-by-wire cars are required to have all sorts of redundancy so they're almost as safe as steering-shaft cars in case of an engine failure. This is a 9,900TEU ship with a 41480 kw powerplant. That a ship with so much more destructive potential is allowed to operate without the same level of redundancy as a $90k Audi, is unconscionable.
jallen_dot_dev 3y ago
Yeah that's not very typical, I'd like to make that point. These ships are built to very rigorous maritime engineering standards.
- joncrane 3y ago
  No cardboard is allowed in the construction.
dmoy 3y ago
We had a 100-200 car ferry here in Seattle lose power and run into an island last year. I think it was something like bad fuel killing the generator.
LinuxBender 3y ago
Probably not the case here, but one possibility could be land-based remote hacking. [1] [1] - https://warontherocks.com/2021/10/cant-sail-away-from-cyber-attacks-sea-hacking-from-land/ https://warontherocks.com/2021/10/cant-sail-away-from-cyber-... (2021)
peterleiser 3y ago
I was curious about power outages as well, and why tugboats aren't required for all container ships that navigate under bridges. I'm not arguing that tugboats MUST be mandated; just wondering about the cost/benefit analysis. This claims that power outages are more common now (but doesn't cite sources/stats) in areas (specifically California) where diesel fuel is required, rather than bunker fuel: https://baykeeper.org/news/column/tugs-test-towing-giant-ship-protect-bay https://baykeeper.org/news/column/tugs-test-towing-giant-shi... It also makes it clear that relying on tugboats to be on standby and "swoop in to the rescue" is seriously wishful thinking where bridge safety is concerned. This article from 2019 is about a power failure due to an Oil Mist Detector that didn't have a "harbour mode" option of keeping the engine running at reduced RPM so you can still maneuver. It also shows the link between engine failure and a need for tugboats under "lessons learned": "– Although it is tempting to free harbour tugs as quickly as possible, in the restricted waters of a small port their assistance can be invaluable should something go wrong." On the other hand, what safety or economic issues do tugboats cause? It will probably become a topic of discussion or investigation at least.

How common are power outages on ships? I get that the captain might not have responded to it correctly but that seems like a thing that shouldn't happen, at least in my completely uneducated opinion.

NaviNick 3y ago

The American courts should hit Maersk really really hard financially and get them to foot the bill for all losses of the bridge collapse. Shipping companies should not be driving vessels of these huge tonnages with such poor levels of redundancy and poor levels of manning. It is insane for a 100,000 tonne vessel, that takes so long to stop due to its incredible inertia, that can find itself many thousands of miles from land, to rely on one engine, one gearbox, one shaft and one rudder; without sufficient secondary and tertiary back-up systems. Why was there no battery back-up, or motor on the shaft? Surely the bow thrusters should have a battery back-up to stop such a lurch to starboard. How can all of the generation and all electrical busbars fail at once? Even if the fuel was bad, surely the generators should draw on separate fuel tanks. For such a large and relatively modern ship to suffer a total power failure is complete corporate incompetence. If, as some allege, the refrigeration containers were causing problems, and total power outages occurring before sailing, the vessel should not have sailed, certainly at night. If this is the case, The Master needs locking up. But, poor man has to take the blame, because he is cheaper than a Danish Master and his Singaporean employer (if he is employed and not a contractor) also operating in a cheaper flag state than Denmark. The Singaporean Company also needs hitting hard if the culture was the cause of the Captain sailing after such alleged pre-sailing power outages. Maersk outsource to reduce personnel and running costs. They use the cheapest crews, cheapest ships and need hitting very very very hard. We might then stop this culture of wealthy shipping companies using every method possible to avoid complying with IMO and more rigorous Nation State standards, operating in the shadows and ducking accountability and responsibility.

paddy_m 3y ago

It shouldn't happen. There will be investigations. I think that having a properly operating ship is the captain's responsibility. But the ship's pilot [1] (not captain) should know exactly how the boat will handle and the exact course of action. Pilots are extremely well paid ($200-$400k) and the tests are very stringent. Friends have told me that the Narraganset Bay pilot test involves drawing every shipping navigation bouy on a map by hand to within ~200 yards from memory alone, compass, ruler and scaled map provided.

Joker_vD 3y ago
Where do you get those salary numbers from? The info about this "Dali" ship is not private: [0], and it lists the master's salary as $10,200 per month. [0] https://www.balticshipping.com/vessel/imo/9697428/seafarers https://www.balticshipping.com/vessel/imo/9697428/seafarers
- TylerE 3y ago
  The pilot is employed by the port/government, not the ship. They drive to just outside the entrance, then they get off onto a tugboat or some other small utility vessel.
  - CalChris 3y ago
    Harbor pilots are licensed by the state (Maryland) require a degree from one of the maritime colleges, deck license, …, are represented by a pilots union (Association of Maryland Pilots) but are employed independently.
- emilyst 3y ago
  I believe the parent comment is referring to the harbor pilot job specifically.
- shagie 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot#Compensation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot#Compensation > The Florida Alliance of Maritime Organizations reported that Florida pilots' annual salaries range from US$100,000 to US$400,000, on par with other US states that have large ports. Columbia Bar pilots earn approximately US$180,000 per year. A 2008 review of pilot salaries in the United States showed that pay ranged from about US$250,000 to over US$500,000 per year.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    Columbia Bar pilots are grossly underpaid.

jordanb 3y ago

According to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tankship-Tromedy-Impending-Disasters-Tankers/dp/0977647900 https://www.amazon.com/Tankship-Tromedy-Impending-Disasters-... It is quite common and vessels often have outages that leave them Not Under Command. Usually they are safely at sea when this happens and they can drift for hours without causing problems. But of course there's always a possibility of it happening at exactly the wrong moment. The reasons for this are the usual: lack of redundancy, lack of maintenance, overworked and understaffed crews, etc. etc. The book lays out how ships are pretty much designed to be floating disasters and the Class societies (essentially privatized regulators) are in the pockets of the builders, and they are so captured that they make rules that make it difficult to make safe vessels. For instance, he was trying to design multi-screw vessels but the rules now assume single-screwed ships and it can be impossible to design in additional shaft alleys and still conform.

ianburrell 3y ago
It wouldn't help with this accident, but you would think that the electronics would be on batteries. It wouldn't be too hard to have rack of batteries that would power the lights, instruments, radios, and sensors. Doesn't help if the propulsion or steering go out, but does make easier to know whats going on.
- myself248 3y ago
  At least in small craft, bow thrusters are usually electric, with local batteries charged from the main engine room. I don't know what large craft are like, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that a bow thruster may remain operable even if the main engine fails. Clearly that's not required or they would've had it and used it, but it could be required if the regulations didn't suck. Furthermore, steering could absolutely have an electric backup for the hydraulic pumps that power the main steering gear. As long as there's some forward speed through the water, the rudder should work. But again, backups clearly aren't required or they would've worked here. Steer-by-wire cars are required to have all sorts of redundancy so they're almost as safe as steering-shaft cars in case of an engine failure. This is a 9,900TEU ship with a 41480 kw powerplant. That a ship with so much more destructive potential is allowed to operate without the same level of redundancy as a $90k Audi, is unconscionable.

jallen_dot_dev 3y ago

Yeah that's not very typical, I'd like to make that point. These ships are built to very rigorous maritime engineering standards.

joncrane 3y ago
No cardboard is allowed in the construction.

dmoy 3y ago

We had a 100-200 car ferry here in Seattle lose power and run into an island last year. I think it was something like bad fuel killing the generator.

LinuxBender 3y ago

Probably not the case here, but one possibility could be land-based remote hacking. [1] [1] - https://warontherocks.com/2021/10/cant-sail-away-from-cyber-attacks-sea-hacking-from-land/ https://warontherocks.com/2021/10/cant-sail-away-from-cyber-... (2021)

peterleiser 3y ago

I was curious about power outages as well, and why tugboats aren't required for all container ships that navigate under bridges. I'm not arguing that tugboats MUST be mandated; just wondering about the cost/benefit analysis. This claims that power outages are more common now (but doesn't cite sources/stats) in areas (specifically California) where diesel fuel is required, rather than bunker fuel: https://baykeeper.org/news/column/tugs-test-towing-giant-ship-protect-bay https://baykeeper.org/news/column/tugs-test-towing-giant-shi... It also makes it clear that relying on tugboats to be on standby and "swoop in to the rescue" is seriously wishful thinking where bridge safety is concerned. This article from 2019 is about a power failure due to an Oil Mist Detector that didn't have a "harbour mode" option of keeping the engine running at reduced RPM so you can still maneuver. It also shows the link between engine failure and a need for tugboats under "lessons learned": "– Although it is tempting to free harbour tugs as quickly as possible, in the restricted waters of a small port their assistance can be invaluable should something go wrong." On the other hand, what safety or economic issues do tugboats cause? It will probably become a topic of discussion or investigation at least.