5 ms·

HMRC offers a Linux version of Basic PAYE Tools, but it recently stopped working

58 points by lproven 3y ago

chgs 3y ago
“Of course, we wouldn't be writing about this if there weren't a snag.” That’s a shame.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
> automatically update never! ever! no mention of whether the old version still works
- jlokier 3y ago
  You have to update, though not automatically. New versions are required to handle changes to the PAYE tax rules, which have changed every few months recently. There was a change announced this month which takes effect next month. If you don't use the updated version, you'll calculate and pay the wrong monthly tax to yourself and your employees.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Which is a stupid design of software... In 2024, tax software ought not to have the tax rules hardcoded, but instead ask the tax authority for a fresh set of rules at startup every time, and alert the user if the rules database ever gets more than 30 days out of date. Nearly every government makes tax rule changes every year - it just isn't reasonable to hardcode them and require the user buy/install new software every year.
    - niklasrde 3y ago
      So updating the rules is not the same as updating the software? Who says this is different here? How do you define the difference between a "tax rule" and business logic? The changes go beyond tax band thresholds and percentages across NIC & IT. Eg the (now-scrapped) Health & Social Care Levy would've been a completely new tax - you need a complex schema to encode that and even then the Treasury will come up with something you haven't thought of next.
    - cameronh90 3y ago
      I'm no expert on tax software, but my experience deploying it for accountants is that on-prem tax software is usually updated monthly to incorporate new rules. Tax rules are very complicated and often can't just be expressed as an entry in a database. In that context, downloading a fresh set of rules at startup is effectively the same as auto-updating.
      - card_zero 3y ago
        Except for not auto-breaking it so that it doesn't auto-work.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    I'm really surprised the software isn't simply a fully online webapp... This is designed for small employers - they want something easy like a website, not specialist software they need to install with a database that must be backed up manually. For those businesses with extreme corner cases ("we don't have internet", "we only pay employees on the full moon", etc), let them continue to use the old paper forms.
    - Shrezzing 3y ago
      I think pretty much 100% of companies just use the online portals provided by the tax software vendors. Companies without direct access to the internet just file their VAT via their accountant, or manually file them through physical mail.
      - cameronh90 3y ago
        This is about PAYE, not VAT, but I believe with VAT, there is no longer a physical mail option. All VAT must now be filed digitally in the UK (see Making Tax Digital).
      - pyb 3y ago
        > Companies without direct access to the internet Don't think HMRC accepts this in 2024.
        londons_explore 3y ago
        Someone somewhere will say their religion forbids them to use a computer...
    - jlokier 3y ago
      > I'm really surprised the software isn't simply a fully online webapp... They're actually going in the opposite direction. It was possible to file VAT on HMRC's website a couple of years ago, but they've taken that option away. Now you have to use 3rd party software to file VAT. It's because they added requirements that your filing software is linked to whatever system you use for business accounts, even if it's a spreadsheet for now. For PAYE, you can use HMRC's tool described in the article, if you're a small enough business, or 3rd party tools, which could be a webapp or not, or your accountant's services. I agree, a webapp would be much more sensible for PAYE, as it could keep up with the monthly rule changes. If you have a registered business, you already have the login, form-filling support etc you would need, as it is used for other taxes and admin on HMRC's site. In a twist, the HMRC tool the article is about is actually a webapp that runs locally. For Corporation Tax, you have to use 3rd party software or services. That's been true for a long time. Historically this software was expensive, so most people ended up using an accountant's services even if just to be able to file Corporation Tax after doing their own accounts. It's more accessible now. You can file it on HMRC's website if the company accounts are simple enough. You can file it at the same time as the Companies House statements, if you're organised enough. For Income Tax from your business, that's going to change to require your filing software to be linked to the system you use for business accounts too, in 2026 or 2027 depending on size of business. I guess that might mean you won't be able to file income tax on HMRC's website any more.
londons_explore 3y ago
This is from the same government that requires companies submit tax information via a special spreadsheet which has 7 boxes for the 7 numbers they need... But rather than make a webform with 7 textboxes, they make a private JSON API which only approved software vendors have access to, and you then need to use a third party to send your spreadsheet via the private API that only the third party is approved to access... [1]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-fill-in-and-submit-your-vat-return-vat-notice-70012 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-fill-in-and-submit-your-v...
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  And this is still miles better than everything else out there. In Spain this is hopeless to do yourself, you _must_ have an accountant on retainer for even the simplest of stuff.
  - psd1 3y ago
    It's worse than that. My wife's sarl must file every quarter, in mind-boggling detail, and is mandated to have both labour and fiscal assessors. It took nearly a year to fire an employee who stole €6000 and maliciously crippled operations. Don't ever operate in Spain.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    I've only been a private individual and an auto-entrepreneur (mini-company) in France, but as far as I know everything is fully digital on publicly available websites that anyone can create an account on and submit the necessary information.
  - spaniard89277 3y ago
    Spain is a lost cause in so many regards...
- jl6 3y ago
  Looks like open source clients are available: https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-vat https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-vat At least, in principle - no idea how well they work.
azalemeth 3y ago
I wish they'd open source tools like this. I wonder what would happen if some kind soul found the bug and squashed it? It's an elf x64 executable. At the very least it has all sorts of references to "TclInvokeObjectCommand" and the like in its symbol table...
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  Python using TK, Cool.
  - pja 3y ago
    There might have been a Tk GUI at some point, but these days it’s a local webserver talking to a local browser which handles the UI. It’s just another rest webapp internally I think.
pyb 3y ago
I was one of the (presumably few) people who used the Linux version, until it stopped working for some reason, a few years ago. After that, I got used to booting into Windows one a month to run my little payroll. TBH, I don't think they should be spending resources on this port. PS : hi Liam, we met at Fosdem a few weeks ago!
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  I do. I don't think the government should be requiring Windows; nor do I think they should be outputting any Excel or Word files at all. All ODF files or PDFs. We shouldn't be paying money for HMRC to use it to pay Microsoft for tools that encourage us all to buy more Microsoft products. That sort of thing seems much more basic than "should Apple be allowed to decide what store is on their phones?"
  - bmordue 3y ago
    Agree with the sentiment, disagree that PDF is the way to go!
  - tigeroil 3y ago
    I think that's sensible but you also aren't required to use the basic PAYE tools - there's plenty of other cross-platform packages.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  No they should not port it to Linux. They should rewrite it so that it is platform independent.
- pja 3y ago
  Still works for me. I think there was a libc issue a year or two ago, which was fixable by patching the libc they bundled with the app.
- lproven 3y ago
  > PS : hi Liam, we met at Fosdem a few weeks ago! Waves :-D
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
erremerre 3y ago
Why cant the tools be made on Java so that they run everywhere? They dont need to be pretty just run.
- dTal 3y ago
  Agreed, .jar is an underrated deployment mechanism. Or, you know, make the darned thing a web app.
  - pja 3y ago
    It is a web app. Runs a local webserver & talks to a browser.
    - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
      OK, a .WAR file then!
  - pyb 3y ago
    HMRC will never launch a web app for this, as they don't want to be a custodian for company payroll data.
pja 3y ago
Huh. It works fine for me. However, sometime around then it stopped launching the bundled browser & started launching the system browser to talk to the webserver that runs in the background & manages the local storage (SQLite IIRC) and communications with HMRC themselves. So my first guess, if it isn’t working for you, would be to test whether xdg-open does the right thing on your system. A year or two ago it stopped working entirely due to a libc mismatch, which I had to fix by patching in a more recent libc. That was less fun.

58 points by lproven 3y ago

chgs 3y ago

“Of course, we wouldn't be writing about this if there weren't a snag.” That’s a shame.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

> automatically update never! ever! no mention of whether the old version still works

jlokier 3y ago
You have to update, though not automatically. New versions are required to handle changes to the PAYE tax rules, which have changed every few months recently. There was a change announced this month which takes effect next month. If you don't use the updated version, you'll calculate and pay the wrong monthly tax to yourself and your employees.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Which is a stupid design of software... In 2024, tax software ought not to have the tax rules hardcoded, but instead ask the tax authority for a fresh set of rules at startup every time, and alert the user if the rules database ever gets more than 30 days out of date. Nearly every government makes tax rule changes every year - it just isn't reasonable to hardcode them and require the user buy/install new software every year.
  - niklasrde 3y ago
    So updating the rules is not the same as updating the software? Who says this is different here? How do you define the difference between a "tax rule" and business logic? The changes go beyond tax band thresholds and percentages across NIC & IT. Eg the (now-scrapped) Health & Social Care Levy would've been a completely new tax - you need a complex schema to encode that and even then the Treasury will come up with something you haven't thought of next.
  - cameronh90 3y ago
    I'm no expert on tax software, but my experience deploying it for accountants is that on-prem tax software is usually updated monthly to incorporate new rules. Tax rules are very complicated and often can't just be expressed as an entry in a database. In that context, downloading a fresh set of rules at startup is effectively the same as auto-updating.
    - card_zero 3y ago
      Except for not auto-breaking it so that it doesn't auto-work.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  I'm really surprised the software isn't simply a fully online webapp... This is designed for small employers - they want something easy like a website, not specialist software they need to install with a database that must be backed up manually. For those businesses with extreme corner cases ("we don't have internet", "we only pay employees on the full moon", etc), let them continue to use the old paper forms.
  - Shrezzing 3y ago
    I think pretty much 100% of companies just use the online portals provided by the tax software vendors. Companies without direct access to the internet just file their VAT via their accountant, or manually file them through physical mail.
    - cameronh90 3y ago
      This is about PAYE, not VAT, but I believe with VAT, there is no longer a physical mail option. All VAT must now be filed digitally in the UK (see Making Tax Digital).
    - pyb 3y ago
      > Companies without direct access to the internet Don't think HMRC accepts this in 2024.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        Someone somewhere will say their religion forbids them to use a computer...
  - jlokier 3y ago
    > I'm really surprised the software isn't simply a fully online webapp... They're actually going in the opposite direction. It was possible to file VAT on HMRC's website a couple of years ago, but they've taken that option away. Now you have to use 3rd party software to file VAT. It's because they added requirements that your filing software is linked to whatever system you use for business accounts, even if it's a spreadsheet for now. For PAYE, you can use HMRC's tool described in the article, if you're a small enough business, or 3rd party tools, which could be a webapp or not, or your accountant's services. I agree, a webapp would be much more sensible for PAYE, as it could keep up with the monthly rule changes. If you have a registered business, you already have the login, form-filling support etc you would need, as it is used for other taxes and admin on HMRC's site. In a twist, the HMRC tool the article is about is actually a webapp that runs locally. For Corporation Tax, you have to use 3rd party software or services. That's been true for a long time. Historically this software was expensive, so most people ended up using an accountant's services even if just to be able to file Corporation Tax after doing their own accounts. It's more accessible now. You can file it on HMRC's website if the company accounts are simple enough. You can file it at the same time as the Companies House statements, if you're organised enough. For Income Tax from your business, that's going to change to require your filing software to be linked to the system you use for business accounts too, in 2026 or 2027 depending on size of business. I guess that might mean you won't be able to file income tax on HMRC's website any more.

londons_explore 3y ago

This is from the same government that requires companies submit tax information via a special spreadsheet which has 7 boxes for the 7 numbers they need... But rather than make a webform with 7 textboxes, they make a private JSON API which only approved software vendors have access to, and you then need to use a third party to send your spreadsheet via the private API that only the third party is approved to access... [1]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-fill-in-and-submit-your-vat-return-vat-notice-70012 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-fill-in-and-submit-your-v...

ricardobayes 3y ago
And this is still miles better than everything else out there. In Spain this is hopeless to do yourself, you _must_ have an accountant on retainer for even the simplest of stuff.
- psd1 3y ago
  It's worse than that. My wife's sarl must file every quarter, in mind-boggling detail, and is mandated to have both labour and fiscal assessors. It took nearly a year to fire an employee who stole €6000 and maliciously crippled operations. Don't ever operate in Spain.
- sofixa 3y ago
  I've only been a private individual and an auto-entrepreneur (mini-company) in France, but as far as I know everything is fully digital on publicly available websites that anyone can create an account on and submit the necessary information.
- spaniard89277 3y ago
  Spain is a lost cause in so many regards...
jl6 3y ago
Looks like open source clients are available: https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-vat https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-vat At least, in principle - no idea how well they work.

azalemeth 3y ago

I wish they'd open source tools like this. I wonder what would happen if some kind soul found the bug and squashed it? It's an elf x64 executable. At the very least it has all sorts of references to "TclInvokeObjectCommand" and the like in its symbol table...

doublerabbit 3y ago
Python using TK, Cool.
- pja 3y ago
  There might have been a Tk GUI at some point, but these days it’s a local webserver talking to a local browser which handles the UI. It’s just another rest webapp internally I think.

pyb 3y ago

I was one of the (presumably few) people who used the Linux version, until it stopped working for some reason, a few years ago. After that, I got used to booting into Windows one a month to run my little payroll. TBH, I don't think they should be spending resources on this port. PS : hi Liam, we met at Fosdem a few weeks ago!

robertlagrant 3y ago
I do. I don't think the government should be requiring Windows; nor do I think they should be outputting any Excel or Word files at all. All ODF files or PDFs. We shouldn't be paying money for HMRC to use it to pay Microsoft for tools that encourage us all to buy more Microsoft products. That sort of thing seems much more basic than "should Apple be allowed to decide what store is on their phones?"
- bmordue 3y ago
  Agree with the sentiment, disagree that PDF is the way to go!
- tigeroil 3y ago
  I think that's sensible but you also aren't required to use the basic PAYE tools - there's plenty of other cross-platform packages.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
No they should not port it to Linux. They should rewrite it so that it is platform independent.
pja 3y ago
Still works for me. I think there was a libc issue a year or two ago, which was fixable by patching the libc they bundled with the app.
lproven 3y ago
> PS : hi Liam, we met at Fosdem a few weeks ago! Waves :-D

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

erremerre 3y ago

Why cant the tools be made on Java so that they run everywhere? They dont need to be pretty just run.

dTal 3y ago
Agreed, .jar is an underrated deployment mechanism. Or, you know, make the darned thing a web app.
- pja 3y ago
  It is a web app. Runs a local webserver & talks to a browser.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    OK, a .WAR file then!
- pyb 3y ago
  HMRC will never launch a web app for this, as they don't want to be a custodian for company payroll data.

pja 3y ago

Huh. It works fine for me. However, sometime around then it stopped launching the bundled browser & started launching the system browser to talk to the webserver that runs in the background & manages the local storage (SQLite IIRC) and communications with HMRC themselves. So my first guess, if it isn’t working for you, would be to test whether xdg-open does the right thing on your system. A year or two ago it stopped working entirely due to a libc mismatch, which I had to fix by patching in a more recent libc. That was less fun.