3 ms·

Doesn't the US have a problem with bridges exceeding their expected service lives?

by Hamuko 3y ago

Retric 3y ago
The boom of bridges after automobiles became common are all running out of time. Yet, paying for a replacement early is also wasteful. So it's an issue, but those bridges where also constructed by a far poorer nation so it's not that big a deal.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  > but those bridges where also constructed by a far poorer nation That's a must more interesting question when discussing the topic of infrastructure. Sure we've created a lot more money in the last 50 years, but we've also lost a lot of domestic manufacturing. When it comes to something as vital as roads and bridges are we poorer when we have less paper money or when we are less independent in the manufacturing and maintenance of them?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Money is just a proxy for power, so “poorer” means not able to do something. Note that you are referring to “we” being poorer, and a country’s ability to do (or get) something is not the same as an individual within the country’s ability to do something.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Money is a side issue people are generally a lot more productive than we where 50 years ago and the US population is 50% larger. That means the government has a lot more resources to work with though how it spends them is another question. I think people feel poorer because income inequality increased so much. New homes are huge because new home buyers are the upper end of the wealth curve. Same deal with cars etc. Stuff that targets everyone like normal sized TV's ends up being extremely cheap because revealed preferences show people buy cheap when it's an option.
    - serf 3y ago
      >That means the government has a lot more resources to work with though how it spends them is another question. it's not that clear-cut. regulations regarding construction are many times more strict, as well employment restrictions and safety code. I mean, the things like the transcontinental railroad were built with what would largely be considered inhumanely treated human slaves by today standards -- that kind of 'advantageous hiring condition' thankfully no longer exists. Stuff like that plus millions of other regulatory nuances that drive the cost of development to be many times more expensive than during the bad old 'wild west' make these kind of value analysis gapped by many years near impossible.
      - Retric 3y ago
        The transcontinental railroad was built without modern heavy equipment. Today fewer people can get a lot more work done even with humane working conditions and modern safety code. Which helps explain humane working conditions and modern safety code. As to regulations, in 2023 an I-95 bridge failed after a gasoline tanker truck fire. They took 12 days to get a temporary replacement that got traffic flowing again. You occasionally see such projects where we need a fix now and then it happens. However, it was a temporary replacement and they needed an actual long term solution. The difference between such rapid projects and more typical ones include time consuming steps to preventing dirt from settling and causing problems in the future etc. Regulations are filled with such tradeoffs, but that doesn't mean we're unable to move more quickly just that we can afford to do something else.
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      > Money is a side issue people are generally a lot more productive than we where 50 years ago and the US population is 50% larger Production per capita may have gone up, but that's (a) likely measuring productivity in financial terms and (b) heavily correlated with an increase in natural resource consumption, especially fossil fuels. If we want to consider ourselves richer because we are able and willing to use more natural resources today could lead down a dark (and very hot) road.
      - 3y ago
_heimdall 3y ago
That's a common topic here, yes, though honestly I rarely hear about a bridge collapse. I don't actually remember the last time I saw news of a bridge or overpass collapse that wasn't causes by damage like this. Makes me want to find the data now. I don't actually known if our bridges are too old, poorly maintained and falling apart early, or if the whole topic is just herd mentality and politics.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  >I don't actually remember the last time I saw news of a bridge or overpass collapse that wasn't causes by damage like this. Fern Hollow Bridge Mk. II?
  - themaninthedark 3y ago
    If we count pedestrian overpasses as part of overpass; FIU pedestrian overpass.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Among the more spectacular recent US bridge failures was the I-35W bridge in Minneapolis, which failed during rush hour with bumper-to-bumper traffic with a loss of 13 lives on 1 August 2007: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge> There's a list of many more failures at Wikpedia, though international in scope: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures> There are a number of ship-bridge collisions listed, as well as fuel-tanker explosions, which seems to be a surprisingly common failure mode. Also numerous failures in China, though how much of that is simply a scale effect I can't say.

Doesn't the US have a problem with bridges exceeding their expected service lives?

by Hamuko 3y ago

Doesn't the US have a problem with bridges exceeding their expected service lives?

The boom of bridges after automobiles became common are all running out of time. Yet, paying for a replacement early is also wasteful. So it's an issue, but those bridges where also constructed by a far poorer nation so it's not that big a deal.

_heimdall 3y ago
> but those bridges where also constructed by a far poorer nation That's a must more interesting question when discussing the topic of infrastructure. Sure we've created a lot more money in the last 50 years, but we've also lost a lot of domestic manufacturing. When it comes to something as vital as roads and bridges are we poorer when we have less paper money or when we are less independent in the manufacturing and maintenance of them?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Money is just a proxy for power, so “poorer” means not able to do something. Note that you are referring to “we” being poorer, and a country’s ability to do (or get) something is not the same as an individual within the country’s ability to do something.
- Retric 3y ago
  Money is a side issue people are generally a lot more productive than we where 50 years ago and the US population is 50% larger. That means the government has a lot more resources to work with though how it spends them is another question. I think people feel poorer because income inequality increased so much. New homes are huge because new home buyers are the upper end of the wealth curve. Same deal with cars etc. Stuff that targets everyone like normal sized TV's ends up being extremely cheap because revealed preferences show people buy cheap when it's an option.
  - serf 3y ago
    >That means the government has a lot more resources to work with though how it spends them is another question. it's not that clear-cut. regulations regarding construction are many times more strict, as well employment restrictions and safety code. I mean, the things like the transcontinental railroad were built with what would largely be considered inhumanely treated human slaves by today standards -- that kind of 'advantageous hiring condition' thankfully no longer exists. Stuff like that plus millions of other regulatory nuances that drive the cost of development to be many times more expensive than during the bad old 'wild west' make these kind of value analysis gapped by many years near impossible.
    - Retric 3y ago
      The transcontinental railroad was built without modern heavy equipment. Today fewer people can get a lot more work done even with humane working conditions and modern safety code. Which helps explain humane working conditions and modern safety code. As to regulations, in 2023 an I-95 bridge failed after a gasoline tanker truck fire. They took 12 days to get a temporary replacement that got traffic flowing again. You occasionally see such projects where we need a fix now and then it happens. However, it was a temporary replacement and they needed an actual long term solution. The difference between such rapid projects and more typical ones include time consuming steps to preventing dirt from settling and causing problems in the future etc. Regulations are filled with such tradeoffs, but that doesn't mean we're unable to move more quickly just that we can afford to do something else.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    > Money is a side issue people are generally a lot more productive than we where 50 years ago and the US population is 50% larger Production per capita may have gone up, but that's (a) likely measuring productivity in financial terms and (b) heavily correlated with an increase in natural resource consumption, especially fossil fuels. If we want to consider ourselves richer because we are able and willing to use more natural resources today could lead down a dark (and very hot) road.
    - 3y ago

_heimdall 3y ago

That's a common topic here, yes, though honestly I rarely hear about a bridge collapse. I don't actually remember the last time I saw news of a bridge or overpass collapse that wasn't causes by damage like this. Makes me want to find the data now. I don't actually known if our bridges are too old, poorly maintained and falling apart early, or if the whole topic is just herd mentality and politics.

Hamuko 3y ago
>I don't actually remember the last time I saw news of a bridge or overpass collapse that wasn't causes by damage like this. Fern Hollow Bridge Mk. II?
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  If we count pedestrian overpasses as part of overpass; FIU pedestrian overpass.
dredmorbius 3y ago
Among the more spectacular recent US bridge failures was the I-35W bridge in Minneapolis, which failed during rush hour with bumper-to-bumper traffic with a loss of 13 lives on 1 August 2007: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge> There's a list of many more failures at Wikpedia, though international in scope: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures> There are a number of ship-bridge collisions listed, as well as fuel-tanker explosions, which seems to be a surprisingly common failure mode. Also numerous failures in China, though how much of that is simply a scale effect I can't say.