6 ms·

I'm only speaking about bitcoin and not about "crypto": Printing fiat money causes speculation. Easy fiat money is also literally the reason for launching bit

I'm only speaking about bitcoin and not about "crypto": Printing fiat money causes speculation. Easy fiat money is also literally the reason for launching bitcoin (just search for the Genesis block). So I see your comment as blaming the solution for the problem.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
epolanski 3y ago
Money needs to have inflation or the incentive is to hoard rather than spend. Why buy a Tesla today for a bitcoin if you can buy it for 0.6 bitcoins in an year or something? Whereas with fiat you have incentives to either invest or spend, but not sit on cash. Money has no value, none of it, not dollars not bitcoins. Unless you like staring at images of Benjamin Franklin or the Queen of UK, it's worthless. The entire proposition of imaginary money that is deflative because there will always be less in circulation is ridiculous, and Bitcoin clearly shows that it doesn't work. Every single time one of my clients added crypto as a mean of payments very few people were interested and we had seen only few transactions till they dropped to 0. And my experience isn't unique, even huge players reported the same happening. People hoard bitcoin to sell it to the next fool at higher price, there is no convenience or point into using it as a payment tool if you have alternatives, it's just gonna cost you more in fees and transactions and be more inconvenient than credit card/apple-google pay.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Also who would loan bitcoin? At least not without significant premium. Thus if you are not rich, anything you cannot immediately buy would have both deflation and interest working against you... And good luck getting even the increases in pay that we now get...
  - neglesaks 3y ago
    This is a cogent and very true point.
  - latchkey 3y ago
    > who would loan bitcoin? There is currently $1.91B worth of wrapped bitcoin (~27k) loaned out on AAVE [0]. So the answer to your question is... a lot of people. [0] https://app.aave.com/reserve-overview/?underlyingAsset=0x2260fac5e5542a773aa44fbcfedf7c193bc2c599&marketName=proto_mainnet_v3 https://app.aave.com/reserve-overview/?underlyingAsset=0x226...
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      So you are telling me that anyone could just loan those coins out and dissapear?
      - latchkey 3y ago
        Why would you loan out your coins and disappear? That makes no sense.
        Ekaros 3y ago
        No I mean take that loan. And then just default on it.
        latchkey 3y ago
        AAVE is collateralized. You can only take a loan out against your existing collateral, up to a ratio point. If you don't maintain your ratio (deposit more collateral or payback your loan), then you're automatically liquidated. The only "default" is against yourself and you're in control of that at all times. https://docs.aave.com/faq/depositing-and-earning https://docs.aave.com/faq/depositing-and-earning https://docs.aave.com/faq/borrowing https://docs.aave.com/faq/borrowing This innovation, along with AMM's, are what first brought actual utility to crypto beyond just buy and hold "number go up".
        Ekaros 3y ago
        So it is completely besides my point.
- dmichulke 3y ago
  > Money needs to have inflation or the incentive is to hoard rather than spend. Is saving "ok" according to your principles? If so, then when does something stop being "saving" and become "hoarding"? > Why buy a Tesla today for a bitcoin if you can buy it for 0.6 bitcoins in an year or something? Because you value a Tesla more, I suppose? Have you considered that artificially driving people to spend has a great cost in terms of ecology? What if we repaired an old car instead of "being induced by the central bank to buy a new one"? Same about houses, have you ever considered that housing is just so expensive because it's safer than dollars in terms of purchasing power? It's not that the demand suddenly increases by 10% yoy, it's the measuring unit that's being devalued (and there is, indeed, speculation on the further devaluation of the currency) BTC will never be 100% payment, it's first of all "flight from devaluation". And since it's a free choice, it's much less morally problematic than "forced devaluation" (of other other people's money through central bank policy). It will have a commonly used payment layer but I agree were not there yet. And even then, countries will not give up their local currency, so you will have BTC as a digital alternative to Gold and "money stored outside the local currency system", with the added advantage that you can hide and transport it very well, even in unsafe spots.
  - epolanski 3y ago
    No I think money is worthless, it holds no intrinsic value, so I find saving beyond small sums for specific goals a stupid goal. In the medium run (few years), some of the value of your savings is gonna be eroded by inflation. You're better off investing in various ways or just spend it. No rich person in this planet is rich because they have lots of cash. Most billionaires have very little amounts of it. All that gives money value is the fact that other people want it. It has a constant demand. Virtually nobody uses Bitcoins for payments, because it's model and self fulfilling prophecy is that price goes up as interest in the coin increases but the amount is stable (if not even decreases by burning or losing access to wallets). Everybody buys to see price go up further and sell. I've been in crypto a long time before in 2017 I just concluded it was all speculation and green with no real world use. You're free to do what you want with your money including speculating in Bitcoin, so far it has been a self fulfilling prophecy of more $ in the long run, I'm also free to see it as nothing else but greed. The very fact that more advanced crypto currencies get no traction even though they really solve Bitcoin pain points is a clear indication that nobody gives two damns about the technology or uses it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

epolanski 3y ago

Money needs to have inflation or the incentive is to hoard rather than spend. Why buy a Tesla today for a bitcoin if you can buy it for 0.6 bitcoins in an year or something? Whereas with fiat you have incentives to either invest or spend, but not sit on cash. Money has no value, none of it, not dollars not bitcoins. Unless you like staring at images of Benjamin Franklin or the Queen of UK, it's worthless. The entire proposition of imaginary money that is deflative because there will always be less in circulation is ridiculous, and Bitcoin clearly shows that it doesn't work. Every single time one of my clients added crypto as a mean of payments very few people were interested and we had seen only few transactions till they dropped to 0. And my experience isn't unique, even huge players reported the same happening. People hoard bitcoin to sell it to the next fool at higher price, there is no convenience or point into using it as a payment tool if you have alternatives, it's just gonna cost you more in fees and transactions and be more inconvenient than credit card/apple-google pay.

Ekaros 3y ago
Also who would loan bitcoin? At least not without significant premium. Thus if you are not rich, anything you cannot immediately buy would have both deflation and interest working against you... And good luck getting even the increases in pay that we now get...
- neglesaks 3y ago
  This is a cogent and very true point.
- latchkey 3y ago
  > who would loan bitcoin? There is currently $1.91B worth of wrapped bitcoin (~27k) loaned out on AAVE [0]. So the answer to your question is... a lot of people. [0] https://app.aave.com/reserve-overview/?underlyingAsset=0x2260fac5e5542a773aa44fbcfedf7c193bc2c599&marketName=proto_mainnet_v3 https://app.aave.com/reserve-overview/?underlyingAsset=0x226...
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    So you are telling me that anyone could just loan those coins out and dissapear?
    - latchkey 3y ago
      Why would you loan out your coins and disappear? That makes no sense.
      - Ekaros 3y ago
        No I mean take that loan. And then just default on it.
        latchkey 3y ago
        AAVE is collateralized. You can only take a loan out against your existing collateral, up to a ratio point. If you don't maintain your ratio (deposit more collateral or payback your loan), then you're automatically liquidated. The only "default" is against yourself and you're in control of that at all times. https://docs.aave.com/faq/depositing-and-earning https://docs.aave.com/faq/depositing-and-earning https://docs.aave.com/faq/borrowing https://docs.aave.com/faq/borrowing This innovation, along with AMM's, are what first brought actual utility to crypto beyond just buy and hold "number go up".
        Ekaros 3y ago
        So it is completely besides my point.
dmichulke 3y ago
> Money needs to have inflation or the incentive is to hoard rather than spend. Is saving "ok" according to your principles? If so, then when does something stop being "saving" and become "hoarding"? > Why buy a Tesla today for a bitcoin if you can buy it for 0.6 bitcoins in an year or something? Because you value a Tesla more, I suppose? Have you considered that artificially driving people to spend has a great cost in terms of ecology? What if we repaired an old car instead of "being induced by the central bank to buy a new one"? Same about houses, have you ever considered that housing is just so expensive because it's safer than dollars in terms of purchasing power? It's not that the demand suddenly increases by 10% yoy, it's the measuring unit that's being devalued (and there is, indeed, speculation on the further devaluation of the currency) BTC will never be 100% payment, it's first of all "flight from devaluation". And since it's a free choice, it's much less morally problematic than "forced devaluation" (of other other people's money through central bank policy). It will have a commonly used payment layer but I agree were not there yet. And even then, countries will not give up their local currency, so you will have BTC as a digital alternative to Gold and "money stored outside the local currency system", with the added advantage that you can hide and transport it very well, even in unsafe spots.
- epolanski 3y ago
  No I think money is worthless, it holds no intrinsic value, so I find saving beyond small sums for specific goals a stupid goal. In the medium run (few years), some of the value of your savings is gonna be eroded by inflation. You're better off investing in various ways or just spend it. No rich person in this planet is rich because they have lots of cash. Most billionaires have very little amounts of it. All that gives money value is the fact that other people want it. It has a constant demand. Virtually nobody uses Bitcoins for payments, because it's model and self fulfilling prophecy is that price goes up as interest in the coin increases but the amount is stable (if not even decreases by burning or losing access to wallets). Everybody buys to see price go up further and sell. I've been in crypto a long time before in 2017 I just concluded it was all speculation and green with no real world use. You're free to do what you want with your money including speculating in Bitcoin, so far it has been a self fulfilling prophecy of more $ in the long run, I'm also free to see it as nothing else but greed. The very fact that more advanced crypto currencies get no traction even though they really solve Bitcoin pain points is a clear indication that nobody gives two damns about the technology or uses it.