4 ms·

Why 7M UK smart meters will stop working and what it will mean

38 points by edward 3y ago

junto 3y ago
I assume that DSL connections aren’t used because not every has one. How far does Ethernet over power line reach? 300m? Could it theoretically reach outside the house to a junction box and if so, could this be a better way of pushing smart meter data to the local provider? I don’t know enough about the technology so maybe I’m being naive.
- simne 3y ago
  You know, this could be opportunity for some new technology, as ISDN (x.25) is just too much for meters (fixed rate 64kbit via one pair, ISDN usually two pairs, so 128k), even when it is really fit on power (traditional telco line is powered, enough for modern CMOS circuits) and cable length.
- everforward 3y ago
  A downside of using the home Internet connection is that the user owns it, so they can block the traffic, try to modify the traffic, etc. I wondered about radio; just have these things constantly emit their signals, and then slap a radio receiver on a cell phone tower to collect them. Or maybe some other frequency; I don't know that radio is ideal. There are some privacy concerns too, if people don't want that info to be public. Could always be encrypted.
- daveoc64 3y ago
  I think having it linked to home broadband would be unpopular from both an energy supplier point of view and from the public. The energy suppliers wouldn't want the support burden of having to troubleshoot people's Wi-Fi, which might not reach to the location where the meter is installed, and could suffer from all sorts of problems. Some consumers wouldn't like the idea of it using their internet connection - even if it was a negligible amount of data consumption. I believe there are some energy supplier provided wireless networks that cover a small part of a neighborhood and all of the meters in that area can connect to the network. I think there are also mesh models where meters communicate over a local network wirelessly, back to a meter that is in the cellular coverage area.
  - junto 3y ago
    By Powerline I meant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication But yes, mesh networking might be an interesting alternative.
RecycledEle 3y ago
If the business/utility/people who bought the smart meters did not specify a port where they can be read by wire (and therefore a new wireless module can be installed) then they get what they deserve. Also, this is less than $1 Billion. Is it worth a HN story?
- daveoc64 3y ago
  That's actually how the meters currently work. The article explains it a little better, but there's the meter equipment and there's communication equipment. The communication modules currently installed might only support 2G (GSM) and 3G (UMTS) networks, but those could be replaced with new modules that support 4G (LTE) and/or 5G (NR) networks. The meter itself doesn't need to change. That is the plan for handling the closure of 2G and 3G networks.
  - simne 3y ago
    I'm experienced electronics designer, and must say, I have not seen thing, could be named standard communications module in your meaning. Yes, I seen GSM modules, I even seen modules which sold with one naming, when first batches was GSM 2.5 (GPRS) and late batches was 3G. But I have not seen any 4G or 5G modules which could just replace 3G modules - every time need totally redesign all scheme and replace antenna.
    - daveoc64 3y ago
      The Smart Meters were designed with this concept from the beginning. https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/network-products-services/communications-hub/ https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/network-product... As noted in the article and by other comments, a short wave radio network is used in the northern parts of the UK instead of cellular networks. This already gives a need for different modules to be used for communication.
      - simne 3y ago
        Ah, life is more complicated than I thought. First, thank you, for information about such thing! I've worked on create Lora network for large City in 2017, and at that time this all look like Babylon tower, where everybody talk on his own language and even existing standards was not widely adopted. Second, as I said before, as I see, regulators just now (about cup years) noticed problem of Smart Meters standards missing, and work still in progress. From what I see, situation is very similar to automobiles with self-driving - some countries are more involved and for some reasons have more ready for self-driving environment (like tiny Singapore). In others things on different stages. Somewhere pilot projects appear and running some temporary regulations. Somewhere autopilot is just unnoticed for regulators, they doing things like 20 years ago, when these technologies just does not existed. And as engineer, I could say, I just understand, why Smart Home devices manufacturers made communications hub, but I also must say, I have few Smart Home devices and I not planned to buy communication hub - I just made my own firmware (to be honest, what I have are all clones of ESP32 and I customized firmware from some opensource) and connect them to my own server. And you may already guess, in my country regulators are just ignore Smart Meters. BTW, greetings from Ukraine, country at war! I don't know exactly why this happen, but looks like exist some Smart countries, which are much more successful than others in use new technologies for good.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
The government will lose the surveillance on those 7M properties and the companies will have to go back to employing a meter man?
- simne 3y ago
  It may looking weird from first view, but as I know, things traditionally go this way :(
martiuk 3y ago
I recently had my smart meter installed, the actual meters (and the display) themselves connect over a Home Area Network (HAN) and a separate module attached to the electricity meter connects to the mobile network to push readings. Speaking to the installer, he said that it's common in the north of England for meters to use radio comms instead of mobile network due to the poor reception, I imagine these are unaffected.
- mprev 3y ago
  It might be more due to the weird way that the government divided responsibility for the metering connectivity. Arqiva have the northern segment and O2 the southern, so they use the method that best suits their existing infrastructure.

38 points by edward 3y ago

I assume that DSL connections aren’t used because not every has one. How far does Ethernet over power line reach? 300m? Could it theoretically reach outside the house to a junction box and if so, could this be a better way of pushing smart meter data to the local provider? I don’t know enough about the technology so maybe I’m being naive.

simne 3y ago
You know, this could be opportunity for some new technology, as ISDN (x.25) is just too much for meters (fixed rate 64kbit via one pair, ISDN usually two pairs, so 128k), even when it is really fit on power (traditional telco line is powered, enough for modern CMOS circuits) and cable length.
everforward 3y ago
A downside of using the home Internet connection is that the user owns it, so they can block the traffic, try to modify the traffic, etc. I wondered about radio; just have these things constantly emit their signals, and then slap a radio receiver on a cell phone tower to collect them. Or maybe some other frequency; I don't know that radio is ideal. There are some privacy concerns too, if people don't want that info to be public. Could always be encrypted.
daveoc64 3y ago
I think having it linked to home broadband would be unpopular from both an energy supplier point of view and from the public. The energy suppliers wouldn't want the support burden of having to troubleshoot people's Wi-Fi, which might not reach to the location where the meter is installed, and could suffer from all sorts of problems. Some consumers wouldn't like the idea of it using their internet connection - even if it was a negligible amount of data consumption. I believe there are some energy supplier provided wireless networks that cover a small part of a neighborhood and all of the meters in that area can connect to the network. I think there are also mesh models where meters communicate over a local network wirelessly, back to a meter that is in the cellular coverage area.
- junto 3y ago
  By Powerline I meant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication But yes, mesh networking might be an interesting alternative.

RecycledEle 3y ago

If the business/utility/people who bought the smart meters did not specify a port where they can be read by wire (and therefore a new wireless module can be installed) then they get what they deserve. Also, this is less than $1 Billion. Is it worth a HN story?

daveoc64 3y ago
That's actually how the meters currently work. The article explains it a little better, but there's the meter equipment and there's communication equipment. The communication modules currently installed might only support 2G (GSM) and 3G (UMTS) networks, but those could be replaced with new modules that support 4G (LTE) and/or 5G (NR) networks. The meter itself doesn't need to change. That is the plan for handling the closure of 2G and 3G networks.
- simne 3y ago
  I'm experienced electronics designer, and must say, I have not seen thing, could be named standard communications module in your meaning. Yes, I seen GSM modules, I even seen modules which sold with one naming, when first batches was GSM 2.5 (GPRS) and late batches was 3G. But I have not seen any 4G or 5G modules which could just replace 3G modules - every time need totally redesign all scheme and replace antenna.
  - daveoc64 3y ago
    The Smart Meters were designed with this concept from the beginning. https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/network-products-services/communications-hub/ https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/network-product... As noted in the article and by other comments, a short wave radio network is used in the northern parts of the UK instead of cellular networks. This already gives a need for different modules to be used for communication.
    - simne 3y ago
      Ah, life is more complicated than I thought. First, thank you, for information about such thing! I've worked on create Lora network for large City in 2017, and at that time this all look like Babylon tower, where everybody talk on his own language and even existing standards was not widely adopted. Second, as I said before, as I see, regulators just now (about cup years) noticed problem of Smart Meters standards missing, and work still in progress. From what I see, situation is very similar to automobiles with self-driving - some countries are more involved and for some reasons have more ready for self-driving environment (like tiny Singapore). In others things on different stages. Somewhere pilot projects appear and running some temporary regulations. Somewhere autopilot is just unnoticed for regulators, they doing things like 20 years ago, when these technologies just does not existed. And as engineer, I could say, I just understand, why Smart Home devices manufacturers made communications hub, but I also must say, I have few Smart Home devices and I not planned to buy communication hub - I just made my own firmware (to be honest, what I have are all clones of ESP32 and I customized firmware from some opensource) and connect them to my own server. And you may already guess, in my country regulators are just ignore Smart Meters. BTW, greetings from Ukraine, country at war! I don't know exactly why this happen, but looks like exist some Smart countries, which are much more successful than others in use new technologies for good.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

The government will lose the surveillance on those 7M properties and the companies will have to go back to employing a meter man?

simne 3y ago
It may looking weird from first view, but as I know, things traditionally go this way :(

martiuk 3y ago

I recently had my smart meter installed, the actual meters (and the display) themselves connect over a Home Area Network (HAN) and a separate module attached to the electricity meter connects to the mobile network to push readings. Speaking to the installer, he said that it's common in the north of England for meters to use radio comms instead of mobile network due to the poor reception, I imagine these are unaffected.

mprev 3y ago
It might be more due to the weird way that the government divided responsibility for the metering connectivity. Arqiva have the northern segment and O2 the southern, so they use the method that best suits their existing infrastructure.