4 ms·

Wow, how many "Goodbye, MongoDB" stories are coming? The last days had several ones. Not sure if this is already a trend?

vccarvalho 14y ago
Ppl seems to hate successful projects. Mongo is probably the most successful noSQL db out there (not going in a war on its merits and flaws) and now people hate it. I wonder how long will take for us to start reading stories on "Why I hate Riak"
kennystone 14y ago
The trend is this: any loved technology that's been around a little while (Rails, Node, Mongo, etc) makes for dramatic farewells on hackernews. It's not unlike supermarket tabloids.
- Uchikoma 14y ago
  "Trough of Disillusionment"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
- zacharyvoase 14y ago
  I disagree. The trend is this: any hype has an equal and opposite anti-hype. 10gen have spent (probably) millions of dollars and countless hours representing MongoDB and singing its praises in various media (conferences, user groups, Web, etc.). If you do so, you need to expect equally fierce reactions when people realise your claims are unsubstantiated (or, at the very least, not as universal and problem-free as you originally portrayed).
  - rdtsc 14y ago
    Very good point. I never thought about it that way. I have been criticizing them for their default settings (no response to write requests, safety turned off by default) for a while. But actually it is not as much for settings themselves, but for lack of a clear red flashing warning on their front page. As their default settings could (still can?) lead to silent data corruption. The worst possible thing to happen to a database. That is shady and shitty practice if you ask me. They are trying to market their technology to other developers, I expect them to at least try to be honest and open about the characteristics of their product. If they treat other developers like they are customers for male enhancement pills in 4am commercials, then I think they should also expect some backlash from said developers when they choose Mongo and then hit all the hidden assumptions and un-delivered promises. Sure it is in the fine print. But if it is important, why not put it in the big print. It is a lot less painful for everyone in the long term.
  - bsg75 14y ago
    I wonder where all those millions come from? All venture capital, or is 10gen gaining paying customers?
    - orthecreedence 14y ago
      As a former Aol employee, I know of a large support contract between them and 10gen. I think a lot of money comes from large companies who have teams that want to use MongoDB, and the large company buys a huge support contract for that team and any other possible team who wants to use it. Maybe that was just Aol, but I'm guess that pattern is that same in other large tech companies too.
- laconian 14y ago
  "Object oriented programming is dead" "Stop subclassing right now" "Java Is A Ghetto"
robterrell 14y ago
IIRC We've had several "Goodbye CouchDB" articles in the past few weeks too. What's the under/over on the inevitable "Goodbye Riak" wave?
- orthecreedence 14y ago
  Perhaps soon, but one thing that has always struck me about Basho (and maybe why Riak isn't as well-known as the other NoSQL DBs) is that they don't have a huge hype machine. They've always been more interested in fixing the problems with their DB and cultivating a community that understands the benefits/detriments of their database than blasting out "HEY EVERY1 SHOULD USE RIAK!!!" everywhere. Their site is very specific about what Riak is good at and what it's bad at. I've seen many mailing list responses to questions about Riak saying "maybe Riak isn't the best fit for this, try looking at X..." whereas 10gen wants everybody to use MongoDB for everything. It just seems to be a more honest operation, and people don't get burned as much.
  - AaronBBrown 14y ago
    As a paying customer of Basho who has had several direct experiences with sales and technical support, I second this. They are incredibly helpful in the event of a problem and are passionate about educating their customers to provide the highest chance of success with their products. They are honest about the limitations imposed by Riak and will go out of their way to help identify a solution. I have literally never had as positive an experience with a technical support team as with Basho. It is very refreshing.
- dieswaytoofast 14y ago
  MongoDB really is the MySQL of the NoSQL movement (http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/2012/02/mongodb-mysql-of-nosql-movement.html http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/2012/02/mongodb-mysql-of-...), which really, really causes issues. AFAICT, the mind-set tends to be (1) Theres this new thing called NoSQL (2) MongoDB is the biggest NoSQL store out there, lets use it (3) Profit! Omitting a - critical - step, viz., "what are we trying to solve for here?". The result, of course, is either people getting burned, or a bit of a mess to unwind, neither of which is particularly fun (though it is "Profit!" for others!) Riak's relative obscurity actually serves well in this regard. Odds are that if you discover Riak, you do so for a reason - you've been searching, you have a specific itch that needs to be scratched, etc. Given that you are already pretty clued when you get to it, you are extremely unlikely to pick it for the wrong reason, and consequently the success rate tends to be astonishingly high. Mind you, I'll add that the folks at Basho are some of the nicest people I know, and that helps a lot :-) Bottom line - I really don't expect Riak to go away anytime soon...

vccarvalho 14y ago

Ppl seems to hate successful projects. Mongo is probably the most successful noSQL db out there (not going in a war on its merits and flaws) and now people hate it. I wonder how long will take for us to start reading stories on "Why I hate Riak"

kennystone 14y ago

The trend is this: any loved technology that's been around a little while (Rails, Node, Mongo, etc) makes for dramatic farewells on hackernews. It's not unlike supermarket tabloids.

Uchikoma 14y ago
"Trough of Disillusionment"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
zacharyvoase 14y ago
I disagree. The trend is this: any hype has an equal and opposite anti-hype. 10gen have spent (probably) millions of dollars and countless hours representing MongoDB and singing its praises in various media (conferences, user groups, Web, etc.). If you do so, you need to expect equally fierce reactions when people realise your claims are unsubstantiated (or, at the very least, not as universal and problem-free as you originally portrayed).
- rdtsc 14y ago
  Very good point. I never thought about it that way. I have been criticizing them for their default settings (no response to write requests, safety turned off by default) for a while. But actually it is not as much for settings themselves, but for lack of a clear red flashing warning on their front page. As their default settings could (still can?) lead to silent data corruption. The worst possible thing to happen to a database. That is shady and shitty practice if you ask me. They are trying to market their technology to other developers, I expect them to at least try to be honest and open about the characteristics of their product. If they treat other developers like they are customers for male enhancement pills in 4am commercials, then I think they should also expect some backlash from said developers when they choose Mongo and then hit all the hidden assumptions and un-delivered promises. Sure it is in the fine print. But if it is important, why not put it in the big print. It is a lot less painful for everyone in the long term.
- bsg75 14y ago
  I wonder where all those millions come from? All venture capital, or is 10gen gaining paying customers?
  - orthecreedence 14y ago
    As a former Aol employee, I know of a large support contract between them and 10gen. I think a lot of money comes from large companies who have teams that want to use MongoDB, and the large company buys a huge support contract for that team and any other possible team who wants to use it. Maybe that was just Aol, but I'm guess that pattern is that same in other large tech companies too.
laconian 14y ago
"Object oriented programming is dead" "Stop subclassing right now" "Java Is A Ghetto"

robterrell 14y ago

IIRC We've had several "Goodbye CouchDB" articles in the past few weeks too. What's the under/over on the inevitable "Goodbye Riak" wave?

orthecreedence 14y ago
Perhaps soon, but one thing that has always struck me about Basho (and maybe why Riak isn't as well-known as the other NoSQL DBs) is that they don't have a huge hype machine. They've always been more interested in fixing the problems with their DB and cultivating a community that understands the benefits/detriments of their database than blasting out "HEY EVERY1 SHOULD USE RIAK!!!" everywhere. Their site is very specific about what Riak is good at and what it's bad at. I've seen many mailing list responses to questions about Riak saying "maybe Riak isn't the best fit for this, try looking at X..." whereas 10gen wants everybody to use MongoDB for everything. It just seems to be a more honest operation, and people don't get burned as much.
- AaronBBrown 14y ago
  As a paying customer of Basho who has had several direct experiences with sales and technical support, I second this. They are incredibly helpful in the event of a problem and are passionate about educating their customers to provide the highest chance of success with their products. They are honest about the limitations imposed by Riak and will go out of their way to help identify a solution. I have literally never had as positive an experience with a technical support team as with Basho. It is very refreshing.
dieswaytoofast 14y ago
MongoDB really is the MySQL of the NoSQL movement (http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/2012/02/mongodb-mysql-of-nosql-movement.html http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/2012/02/mongodb-mysql-of-...), which really, really causes issues. AFAICT, the mind-set tends to be (1) Theres this new thing called NoSQL (2) MongoDB is the biggest NoSQL store out there, lets use it (3) Profit! Omitting a - critical - step, viz., "what are we trying to solve for here?". The result, of course, is either people getting burned, or a bit of a mess to unwind, neither of which is particularly fun (though it is "Profit!" for others!) Riak's relative obscurity actually serves well in this regard. Odds are that if you discover Riak, you do so for a reason - you've been searching, you have a specific itch that needs to be scratched, etc. Given that you are already pretty clued when you get to it, you are extremely unlikely to pick it for the wrong reason, and consequently the success rate tends to be astonishingly high. Mind you, I'll add that the folks at Basho are some of the nicest people I know, and that helps a lot :-) Bottom line - I really don't expect Riak to go away anytime soon...