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Help me understand the advice I hear, "Forget about apps, take a class, or just talk to people, and a relationship will find you." It would seem that it takes

Help me understand the advice I hear, "Forget about apps, take a class, or just talk to people, and a relationship will find you." It would seem that it takes at least twice as much effort pursuing this strategy today than it did 20 years ago, it's only becoming worse. How is it justified? Note: I'm happily married. The advice is a large proportion of what I read online when dating advice is given.

jrussino 3y ago
My suspicion is that this is (a) advice from people like us who got out of the dating pool before online dating came to dominate and don't have firsthand experience of how much things have changed in a short time period, and (b) wishful thinking from people who are looking at this trend and saying "it doesn't have to be like this; there's a better way to live..."
- jprete 3y ago
  I think you are right. I also think the Internet magnifies conventional advice, because nobody gets attacked (by anyone they care about) for promoting conventional advice even when it's dead wrong.
- jyunwai 3y ago
  I respectfully disagree, having grown up at a time when online dating became mainstream. Though some people might give this advice due to the motivations you've mentioned, I've also heard people share this opinion due to their poor experiences with online dating. I've written more about this in another comment in this discussion, but I've known people who have had experiences where they were more likely to get stood up, broken up with unexpectedly, and especially ghosted from online dating versus by people they've met in-person. The process can also be draining for many people: I've talked to people who have been exhausted by regular rejection, or by spending lots of energy and time on bad dates (in contrast to dates that are likely to go better with people they've met in-person). They've then found themselves happier by dating people they've first met in-person, instead of online. For a wider perspective, a 2023 US survey found that online dating has been positive for 53% of respondents, and negative for 46% [1]. So, people have had mixed experiences with online dating in general. I think online dating can work great for many people (I personally know a few people who've been very happy with their experiences), though it's not necessary for having a good relationship, nor a positive experience for many others. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findi...
antisthenes 3y ago
99% of dating advice is survivorship bias.
- postsantum 3y ago
  The remaining 1% is "Be attractive, don't be unattractive"
bparsons 3y ago
On some level, the apps are optimized to keep you coming back. Whether it is an explicit business strategy or an outcome of the algorithm optimizing for profit, it doesn't really matter. The customer and software company do not have aligned incentives.
CobrastanJorji 3y ago
First and foremost, it's probably because the advice was accurate 20 years ago, but advice doesn't go away just because it stops being true. Secondly, if meeting online continually fails to work for you specifically, it's possible that it will continue to not work for you, and so looking into other options is probably a good idea. I like to think that people who say this are really trying to adjust your behavior to make you a better candidate. Following that advice will make you come across as less desperate, it'll make you more interesting, it'll make you more practiced socializing, and if all else fails, it'll probably leave you more a more well single person than you otherwise would've been.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  > but advice doesn't go away just because it stops being true. yeah it kinda does. context is everything and 20 years ago is a wayyyy different time. MeToo and brutal gender politics have changed the landscape, and most of the younger folks I work or interact with -- discord, man -- have implied that they're struggling with meeting people, struggling with fear (of being accused of something, or fear of men accosting them), often short on cash, and living with their parents -- which makes bringing somebody home difficult. in-person is always an option, but I get why people may not feel that way.
  - CobrastanJorji 3y ago
    Sure, but people keep giving the same advice based on their lived experience. They have no way to receive signals that the ground truth has changed. Go ask a baby boomer what to do if you need a job, and there's a good chance they'll tell you to march into any local business, ask for a job, offer a firm handshake, "be willing to work hard and work your way up from the ground floor." Is that good advice? Not really, no, but it probably WAS good advice in 1965.
mxkopy 3y ago
The online version is finding people through gaming, it seems like (which is happening somewhat frequently). So basically the same advice applies (find relationships not dates). To your point though it’s a sign of how off the beaten path we are that the most natural way to meet people is now one of the least accessible.
jyunwai 3y ago
I half-jokingly say that what motivates many couples to stay committed in a time of hardship is the idea of the possibility of "fate." Anecdotally, just within my social group, I've seen a trend of people deciding to avoid online dating and preferring to meet others in-person. There may be a tendency for people to break up more easily after meeting online and commit less to the relationship in tough times, in contrast to people they've met in-person—perhaps in part due to the idea that fate led them to meet each other. I also know of a few couples who met online and have made it work. For one couple, they happened to meet by coincidence a couple times due to already having mutual friends, who have had a great relationship that continues to be strong. I have an intuition that these circumstances gave the relationship a sense of being special and difficult to replace (in addition to their personalities being a great fit), strengthening their commitment to each other. The process of online dating can also be exhausting, from the accounts of a few people I've known who tried it for a while. Dating apps are often designed to be addictive to encourage you to check often: even then, the number of rejections or failed dates can also wear you down. In these ways, online dating for many users can be high-effort and draining.
brailsafe 3y ago
Well, wouldn't it be similarly true that if it does take twice as much effort, and the advice is asked for and received online, that the person receiving or offering the advice is sufficiently more likely to spend that time not in those spaces? Put another way, if it's twice as hard to meet someone in real life, couldn't it be because the single person is spending twice as much time away from real life, and their potential targets are doing the same, and subsequently wondering why it's so hard to meet people there? Pretty hard to meet someone at the gym if you're spending all your time on Reddit asking for dating advice, and the rest in the bathroom swiping through tinder, meanwhile when you finally sign up you spend all your time with headphones on looking unapproachable. If someone asked for my advice in the dating world, it sure as hell wouldn't be "spend more time on the Internet, and relationships will happen" despite this shitty chart indicating that's how some percentage of recent couples have met
somebodythere 3y ago
Here's an alternative perspective: the low activation energy and addictive design has resulted in people crowding into the dating app strategy (to their own detriment). If this is true, real-world approaches might be a better strategy than they historically have been. There's a poll that indicated most young women want to be approached more: https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/ https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  approached more... by whom? what does that person look like? and where? there used to be 3rd places, community events (church, etc.), etc., where this could happen. i mean i'd like more good looking people hitting on me at convenient times, too
  - cafard 3y ago
    There used to be churches, indeed. I can look over my screen and see one about thirty yards away. Apart from churches, there are quite a few community events and activities I can think of that could draw on the unattached: tree plantings, park cleanups (I know there will be one in my neighborhood on Earth Day), tutoring, soup kitchens, etc.
nicbou 3y ago
The good thing is that you spend that time doing something you like or learning a new skill, and might also make friends. You also filter for partners who are interested in the same things as you. The bad thing is that a lot of people read that advice, and many communities are ruined by men who use them as a dating pool. This is a well-documented phenomenon. I think that the broader advice - to put yourself out there - is still valid. Going out, doing stuff, organizing stuff and meeting new people means occasionally getting a date too.

jrussino 3y ago

My suspicion is that this is (a) advice from people like us who got out of the dating pool before online dating came to dominate and don't have firsthand experience of how much things have changed in a short time period, and (b) wishful thinking from people who are looking at this trend and saying "it doesn't have to be like this; there's a better way to live..."

jprete 3y ago
I think you are right. I also think the Internet magnifies conventional advice, because nobody gets attacked (by anyone they care about) for promoting conventional advice even when it's dead wrong.
jyunwai 3y ago
I respectfully disagree, having grown up at a time when online dating became mainstream. Though some people might give this advice due to the motivations you've mentioned, I've also heard people share this opinion due to their poor experiences with online dating. I've written more about this in another comment in this discussion, but I've known people who have had experiences where they were more likely to get stood up, broken up with unexpectedly, and especially ghosted from online dating versus by people they've met in-person. The process can also be draining for many people: I've talked to people who have been exhausted by regular rejection, or by spending lots of energy and time on bad dates (in contrast to dates that are likely to go better with people they've met in-person). They've then found themselves happier by dating people they've first met in-person, instead of online. For a wider perspective, a 2023 US survey found that online dating has been positive for 53% of respondents, and negative for 46% [1]. So, people have had mixed experiences with online dating in general. I think online dating can work great for many people (I personally know a few people who've been very happy with their experiences), though it's not necessary for having a good relationship, nor a positive experience for many others. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findi...

antisthenes 3y ago

99% of dating advice is survivorship bias.

postsantum 3y ago
The remaining 1% is "Be attractive, don't be unattractive"

bparsons 3y ago

On some level, the apps are optimized to keep you coming back. Whether it is an explicit business strategy or an outcome of the algorithm optimizing for profit, it doesn't really matter. The customer and software company do not have aligned incentives.

CobrastanJorji 3y ago

First and foremost, it's probably because the advice was accurate 20 years ago, but advice doesn't go away just because it stops being true. Secondly, if meeting online continually fails to work for you specifically, it's possible that it will continue to not work for you, and so looking into other options is probably a good idea. I like to think that people who say this are really trying to adjust your behavior to make you a better candidate. Following that advice will make you come across as less desperate, it'll make you more interesting, it'll make you more practiced socializing, and if all else fails, it'll probably leave you more a more well single person than you otherwise would've been.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
> but advice doesn't go away just because it stops being true. yeah it kinda does. context is everything and 20 years ago is a wayyyy different time. MeToo and brutal gender politics have changed the landscape, and most of the younger folks I work or interact with -- discord, man -- have implied that they're struggling with meeting people, struggling with fear (of being accused of something, or fear of men accosting them), often short on cash, and living with their parents -- which makes bringing somebody home difficult. in-person is always an option, but I get why people may not feel that way.
- CobrastanJorji 3y ago
  Sure, but people keep giving the same advice based on their lived experience. They have no way to receive signals that the ground truth has changed. Go ask a baby boomer what to do if you need a job, and there's a good chance they'll tell you to march into any local business, ask for a job, offer a firm handshake, "be willing to work hard and work your way up from the ground floor." Is that good advice? Not really, no, but it probably WAS good advice in 1965.

mxkopy 3y ago

The online version is finding people through gaming, it seems like (which is happening somewhat frequently). So basically the same advice applies (find relationships not dates). To your point though it’s a sign of how off the beaten path we are that the most natural way to meet people is now one of the least accessible.

jyunwai 3y ago

I half-jokingly say that what motivates many couples to stay committed in a time of hardship is the idea of the possibility of "fate." Anecdotally, just within my social group, I've seen a trend of people deciding to avoid online dating and preferring to meet others in-person. There may be a tendency for people to break up more easily after meeting online and commit less to the relationship in tough times, in contrast to people they've met in-person—perhaps in part due to the idea that fate led them to meet each other. I also know of a few couples who met online and have made it work. For one couple, they happened to meet by coincidence a couple times due to already having mutual friends, who have had a great relationship that continues to be strong. I have an intuition that these circumstances gave the relationship a sense of being special and difficult to replace (in addition to their personalities being a great fit), strengthening their commitment to each other. The process of online dating can also be exhausting, from the accounts of a few people I've known who tried it for a while. Dating apps are often designed to be addictive to encourage you to check often: even then, the number of rejections or failed dates can also wear you down. In these ways, online dating for many users can be high-effort and draining.

brailsafe 3y ago

Well, wouldn't it be similarly true that if it does take twice as much effort, and the advice is asked for and received online, that the person receiving or offering the advice is sufficiently more likely to spend that time not in those spaces? Put another way, if it's twice as hard to meet someone in real life, couldn't it be because the single person is spending twice as much time away from real life, and their potential targets are doing the same, and subsequently wondering why it's so hard to meet people there? Pretty hard to meet someone at the gym if you're spending all your time on Reddit asking for dating advice, and the rest in the bathroom swiping through tinder, meanwhile when you finally sign up you spend all your time with headphones on looking unapproachable. If someone asked for my advice in the dating world, it sure as hell wouldn't be "spend more time on the Internet, and relationships will happen" despite this shitty chart indicating that's how some percentage of recent couples have met

somebodythere 3y ago

Here's an alternative perspective: the low activation energy and addictive design has resulted in people crowding into the dating app strategy (to their own detriment). If this is true, real-world approaches might be a better strategy than they historically have been. There's a poll that indicated most young women want to be approached more: https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/ https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/

red-iron-pine 3y ago
approached more... by whom? what does that person look like? and where? there used to be 3rd places, community events (church, etc.), etc., where this could happen. i mean i'd like more good looking people hitting on me at convenient times, too
- cafard 3y ago
  There used to be churches, indeed. I can look over my screen and see one about thirty yards away. Apart from churches, there are quite a few community events and activities I can think of that could draw on the unattached: tree plantings, park cleanups (I know there will be one in my neighborhood on Earth Day), tutoring, soup kitchens, etc.

nicbou 3y ago

The good thing is that you spend that time doing something you like or learning a new skill, and might also make friends. You also filter for partners who are interested in the same things as you. The bad thing is that a lot of people read that advice, and many communities are ruined by men who use them as a dating pool. This is a well-documented phenomenon. I think that the broader advice - to put yourself out there - is still valid. Going out, doing stuff, organizing stuff and meeting new people means occasionally getting a date too.