3 ms·

> This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. many things likely can't be fact checked, e.g

> This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. many things likely can't be fact checked, e.g. what kind of warriors/spies ninjas really were.

the_af 3y ago
True, it's hard to tell fact from fiction, especially because much of what is known about samurai, ninja, the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period, in many cases by writers who were romanticizing the olden days. I think most mainstream historians believe ninjas (as depicted in pop culture: assassins clad in black, with almost supernatural infiltration abilities, armed with shuriken, "opposed" to the samurai, etc) are completely fictional. There were spies and some jizamurai engaged in guerrilla tactics and wrote some books about it, and that's about it.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period It doesn't look like bushido is nonsense. There are some works from late Sengoku/early Edo period which describe concepts, so likely they carry some knowledge from period of civil wars.
  - the_af 3y ago
    There was basically no "bushido" in the Sengoku period, beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures. Different samurai clans had different ideas of which rituals, behaviors and traditions to follow, so there is no single idea of a "samurai code". Martial skills were probably a common factor. "Bushido", the word itself, is relatively "new" in Japanese history. As a concept, it was written about mostly during the Edo period (and later), after the samurai were effectively de-militarized and formalized into a fixed caste and basically became bureaucrats, and no longer had major wars to be involved in. This period spawned works such as the Hagakure, which was written by a bureaucrat who longed for the olden days of samurai "virtue", and exaggerated and romanticized a way of life he didn't experience himself. Apparently later Japan bought into this idea of a glorious and honor-bound "samurai" past, but this was mostly made up. So while there's a core of truth to it -- different samurai clans may or may not have followed different codes of behavior, who weren't called "bushido" back then -- it was heavily romanticized, exaggerated and turned into a mythical virtue of the samurai by later writers who weren't alive when the samurai were actual warriors. Which, as a shortcut, I called "nonsense".
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures "vassal/lord relationships" could be very different in very different cultures. If it was common for Sengoku samurais to commit sepuku on order of lord, then this is concept/code of bushido which was not present in say majority of Western feudal cultures.
      - the_af 3y ago
        It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else...". There are some examples where it happened, but not enough to consider it standard practice or "code". Putting enemies to the sword, one way or the other, was also common in Europe. The difference is that Christianity frowned upon suicide (either voluntary or forced). Samurai defeated in battle ran away to fight another day, like most humans. "Bushido" is supposed to be more than seppuku anyway. This notion of the samurai as someone extremely loyal and honor-bound to follow his lord or commit suicide otherwise is a fiction. Like I said, Japan did some nation-building on top of this myth, but it was mostly a development of writers who lived past the Sengoku, when samurai were no longer warriors. Think of bushido as Arthurian lore: it's fiction, and people of several times updated it and added to it, and built a mythos around it. Even the katana as the "soul of the samurai" is a later day fiction; samurai during the Sengoku prized katanas (or their predecesors, actually) but they didn't particularly use them except as sidearms; it was the spear and the bow that were the "true" samurai weapons; the daisho was only codified as the "samurai symbol" once the warring period had mostly ended. It's also an invention... Meanwhile, the real samurai were warriors and did what warriors of every culture did: war among each other, kill things, and amass fortune when they could.
        riku_iki 3y ago
        > It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else...". I am wondering how did you arrive to this conclusion? I guess one would need to do some comprehensive review of all available materials from that time?.. > Even the katana as the "soul of the samurai" is a later day fiction; samurai during the Sengoku prized katanas (or their predecesors, actually) but they didn't particularly use them except as sidearms; it was the spear and the bow I am not sure where katana as the soul idea came from, but I speculate that while spear, bow and arquebuse were battlefield weapons, samurais used it only in rare events of going to campaigns, while they carried katana rest of the time, so I guess it could be appropriate to call it soul.

the_af 3y ago

True, it's hard to tell fact from fiction, especially because much of what is known about samurai, ninja, the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period, in many cases by writers who were romanticizing the olden days. I think most mainstream historians believe ninjas (as depicted in pop culture: assassins clad in black, with almost supernatural infiltration abilities, armed with shuriken, "opposed" to the samurai, etc) are completely fictional. There were spies and some jizamurai engaged in guerrilla tactics and wrote some books about it, and that's about it.

riku_iki 3y ago
> the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period It doesn't look like bushido is nonsense. There are some works from late Sengoku/early Edo period which describe concepts, so likely they carry some knowledge from period of civil wars.
- the_af 3y ago
  There was basically no "bushido" in the Sengoku period, beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures. Different samurai clans had different ideas of which rituals, behaviors and traditions to follow, so there is no single idea of a "samurai code". Martial skills were probably a common factor. "Bushido", the word itself, is relatively "new" in Japanese history. As a concept, it was written about mostly during the Edo period (and later), after the samurai were effectively de-militarized and formalized into a fixed caste and basically became bureaucrats, and no longer had major wars to be involved in. This period spawned works such as the Hagakure, which was written by a bureaucrat who longed for the olden days of samurai "virtue", and exaggerated and romanticized a way of life he didn't experience himself. Apparently later Japan bought into this idea of a glorious and honor-bound "samurai" past, but this was mostly made up. So while there's a core of truth to it -- different samurai clans may or may not have followed different codes of behavior, who weren't called "bushido" back then -- it was heavily romanticized, exaggerated and turned into a mythical virtue of the samurai by later writers who weren't alive when the samurai were actual warriors. Which, as a shortcut, I called "nonsense".
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures "vassal/lord relationships" could be very different in very different cultures. If it was common for Sengoku samurais to commit sepuku on order of lord, then this is concept/code of bushido which was not present in say majority of Western feudal cultures.
    - the_af 3y ago
      It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else...". There are some examples where it happened, but not enough to consider it standard practice or "code". Putting enemies to the sword, one way or the other, was also common in Europe. The difference is that Christianity frowned upon suicide (either voluntary or forced). Samurai defeated in battle ran away to fight another day, like most humans. "Bushido" is supposed to be more than seppuku anyway. This notion of the samurai as someone extremely loyal and honor-bound to follow his lord or commit suicide otherwise is a fiction. Like I said, Japan did some nation-building on top of this myth, but it was mostly a development of writers who lived past the Sengoku, when samurai were no longer warriors. Think of bushido as Arthurian lore: it's fiction, and people of several times updated it and added to it, and built a mythos around it. Even the katana as the "soul of the samurai" is a later day fiction; samurai during the Sengoku prized katanas (or their predecesors, actually) but they didn't particularly use them except as sidearms; it was the spear and the bow that were the "true" samurai weapons; the daisho was only codified as the "samurai symbol" once the warring period had mostly ended. It's also an invention... Meanwhile, the real samurai were warriors and did what warriors of every culture did: war among each other, kill things, and amass fortune when they could.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        > It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else...". I am wondering how did you arrive to this conclusion? I guess one would need to do some comprehensive review of all available materials from that time?.. > Even the katana as the "soul of the samurai" is a later day fiction; samurai during the Sengoku prized katanas (or their predecesors, actually) but they didn't particularly use them except as sidearms; it was the spear and the bow I am not sure where katana as the soul idea came from, but I speculate that while spear, bow and arquebuse were battlefield weapons, samurais used it only in rare events of going to campaigns, while they carried katana rest of the time, so I guess it could be appropriate to call it soul.