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For folk interested in learning more about what historians and similar think of the novel, a compilation of essays on the subject titled "Learning from SHOGUN:

For folk interested in learning more about what historians and similar think of the novel, a compilation of essays on the subject titled "Learning from SHOGUN: Japanese History and Western Fantasy" has been made available courtesy of the compilation's editor, Henry Smith.: https://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/ https://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/

ProjectArcturis 3y ago
I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would have been rude). Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't particularly realistic. This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. But I'd still like to know.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. many things likely can't be fact checked, e.g. what kind of warriors/spies ninjas really were.
  - the_af 3y ago
    True, it's hard to tell fact from fiction, especially because much of what is known about samurai, ninja, the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period, in many cases by writers who were romanticizing the olden days. I think most mainstream historians believe ninjas (as depicted in pop culture: assassins clad in black, with almost supernatural infiltration abilities, armed with shuriken, "opposed" to the samurai, etc) are completely fictional. There were spies and some jizamurai engaged in guerrilla tactics and wrote some books about it, and that's about it.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period It doesn't look like bushido is nonsense. There are some works from late Sengoku/early Edo period which describe concepts, so likely they carry some knowledge from period of civil wars.
      - the_af 3y ago
        There was basically no "bushido" in the Sengoku period, beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures. Different samurai clans had different ideas of which rituals, behaviors and traditions to follow, so there is no single idea of a "samurai code". Martial skills were probably a common factor. "Bushido", the word itself, is relatively "new" in Japanese history. As a concept, it was written about mostly during the Edo period (and later), after the samurai were effectively de-militarized and formalized into a fixed caste and basically became bureaucrats, and no longer had major wars to be involved in. This period spawned works such as the Hagakure, which was written by a bureaucrat who longed for the olden days of samurai "virtue", and exaggerated and romanticized a way of life he didn't experience himself. Apparently later Japan bought into this idea of a glorious and honor-bound "samurai" past, but this was mostly made up. So while there's a core of truth to it -- different samurai clans may or may not have followed different codes of behavior, who weren't called "bushido" back then -- it was heavily romanticized, exaggerated and turned into a mythical virtue of the samurai by later writers who weren't alive when the samurai were actual warriors. Which, as a shortcut, I called "nonsense".
        riku_iki 3y ago
        > beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures "vassal/lord relationships" could be very different in very different cultures. If it was common for Sengoku samurais to commit sepuku on order of lord, then this is concept/code of bushido which was not present in say majority of Western feudal cultures.
        the_af 3y ago
- alephknoll 3y ago
  > I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book It's a work of fiction. I suspect it is as accurate as a japanese book about america or hollywood's depiction of the wild west. Early on, the book describes blackthorne as being a head and shoulders taller than the locals. That may be true in 1900s england, but in 1600s ( really 1500s ) england, an englishman was generally closer to 5 feet than 6 feet. And as you noted the comical suicides and extreme behavior of the characters doesn't seem realistic at all. Shogun probably reflects 1600s japan as well as Fargo reflects 1990s Dakotas/Minnesota ( and that was based on a true story! ).
  - steveoscaro 3y ago
    I can't tell if you're in or out of the know on the "true story" part haha
    - zer00eyz 3y ago
      I grew up in Sandy Hook, part of Newtown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts This woman's murder was the inspiration for Fargo.
      - the_af 3y ago
        The Coen Brothers have changed the explanation multiple times; the movie claims to be "exactly how it happened" (always took this as a joke), the DVD claims it was inspired in the murder you mentioned, and still in 2015 they claimed the story is completely made up...
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    Out of curiosity, I found a study, "A biomolecular anthropological investigation of William Adams, the first SAMURAI from England", which dug up his bones and estimated he was 170 cm (about 5'7").
- the_af 3y ago
  > Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't particularly realistic. It's very likely ninja (or "shinobi", if you're meticulous) didn't exist at all. There must have been spies and assassins, which are already present in Chinese culture which was a big influence in Japanese culture, but the ninja as a stealthy infiltrator, wearing black clothes and special weaponry is a later day invention. I actually like that in the remade "Shogun" TV show, the "ninja" attack is replaced by a maid who turns out to be an assassin in the payroll of Toranaga's enemies. Not clad in black or with super powers, just a woman who can handle a sword and attacks by surprise.
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    The first attack was a secretive Buddhist assassination organization called Amida Tong. Not ninja. Ninjas will appear later in an even more stupid way and I hope they heavily diverge from the book there.
    - the_af 3y ago
      Let's hope! But... this being a work of fiction, I'd forgive them a bit of thrilling ninja action. As long as everybody understands they are like dragons in Game of Thrones: made up.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    I once read that the first "ninja assassination" was basically a Japanese prince who sat under the outhouse of a rival for days, till he could attack the right butt.
- Jrjrir48 3y ago
  That does not mean the book is not accurate, book just has to be read certain way. If you read modern literature , there is a lot of noise and hyperbole. Like 20% females being raped while studying at college. It comes from well accepted study, was quoted in several journals, but obviously has to be open to some interpretation. My guess young samurais would prefer seppuku over chores and punishment. Perhaps look into Kyōgen to get some perspective.
- stevenwoo 3y ago
  They tried to fix several historical inaccuracies in the most recent show, including no Hollywood ninjas, and the Japanese already understanding guns because the Portuguese introduced them 50 years earlier but learning cannon techniques from the Adams stand-in instead, though some of the formal gestures (some sitting position IIRC) they told the performers to use the incorrect but popular forms used in Japanese movies and television about the time period. They talk about the changes they made in the after episode podcast, one of the historical consultants sometimes comes on.

ProjectArcturis 3y ago

I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would have been rude). Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't particularly realistic. This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. But I'd still like to know.

riku_iki 3y ago
> This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. many things likely can't be fact checked, e.g. what kind of warriors/spies ninjas really were.
- the_af 3y ago
  True, it's hard to tell fact from fiction, especially because much of what is known about samurai, ninja, the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period, in many cases by writers who were romanticizing the olden days. I think most mainstream historians believe ninjas (as depicted in pop culture: assassins clad in black, with almost supernatural infiltration abilities, armed with shuriken, "opposed" to the samurai, etc) are completely fictional. There were spies and some jizamurai engaged in guerrilla tactics and wrote some books about it, and that's about it.
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > the whole "bushido" nonsense, comes from the later Edo period It doesn't look like bushido is nonsense. There are some works from late Sengoku/early Edo period which describe concepts, so likely they carry some knowledge from period of civil wars.
    - the_af 3y ago
      There was basically no "bushido" in the Sengoku period, beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures. Different samurai clans had different ideas of which rituals, behaviors and traditions to follow, so there is no single idea of a "samurai code". Martial skills were probably a common factor. "Bushido", the word itself, is relatively "new" in Japanese history. As a concept, it was written about mostly during the Edo period (and later), after the samurai were effectively de-militarized and formalized into a fixed caste and basically became bureaucrats, and no longer had major wars to be involved in. This period spawned works such as the Hagakure, which was written by a bureaucrat who longed for the olden days of samurai "virtue", and exaggerated and romanticized a way of life he didn't experience himself. Apparently later Japan bought into this idea of a glorious and honor-bound "samurai" past, but this was mostly made up. So while there's a core of truth to it -- different samurai clans may or may not have followed different codes of behavior, who weren't called "bushido" back then -- it was heavily romanticized, exaggerated and turned into a mythical virtue of the samurai by later writers who weren't alive when the samurai were actual warriors. Which, as a shortcut, I called "nonsense".
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        > beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures "vassal/lord relationships" could be very different in very different cultures. If it was common for Sengoku samurais to commit sepuku on order of lord, then this is concept/code of bushido which was not present in say majority of Western feudal cultures.
        the_af 3y ago
alephknoll 3y ago
> I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book It's a work of fiction. I suspect it is as accurate as a japanese book about america or hollywood's depiction of the wild west. Early on, the book describes blackthorne as being a head and shoulders taller than the locals. That may be true in 1900s england, but in 1600s ( really 1500s ) england, an englishman was generally closer to 5 feet than 6 feet. And as you noted the comical suicides and extreme behavior of the characters doesn't seem realistic at all. Shogun probably reflects 1600s japan as well as Fargo reflects 1990s Dakotas/Minnesota ( and that was based on a true story! ).
- steveoscaro 3y ago
  I can't tell if you're in or out of the know on the "true story" part haha
  - zer00eyz 3y ago
    I grew up in Sandy Hook, part of Newtown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts This woman's murder was the inspiration for Fargo.
    - the_af 3y ago
      The Coen Brothers have changed the explanation multiple times; the movie claims to be "exactly how it happened" (always took this as a joke), the DVD claims it was inspired in the murder you mentioned, and still in 2015 they claimed the story is completely made up...
- ProjectArcturis 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, I found a study, "A biomolecular anthropological investigation of William Adams, the first SAMURAI from England", which dug up his bones and estimated he was 170 cm (about 5'7").
the_af 3y ago
> Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits the legend, certainly, but isn't particularly realistic. It's very likely ninja (or "shinobi", if you're meticulous) didn't exist at all. There must have been spies and assassins, which are already present in Chinese culture which was a big influence in Japanese culture, but the ninja as a stealthy infiltrator, wearing black clothes and special weaponry is a later day invention. I actually like that in the remade "Shogun" TV show, the "ninja" attack is replaced by a maid who turns out to be an assassin in the payroll of Toranaga's enemies. Not clad in black or with super powers, just a woman who can handle a sword and attacks by surprise.
- Aerroon 3y ago
  The first attack was a secretive Buddhist assassination organization called Amida Tong. Not ninja. Ninjas will appear later in an even more stupid way and I hope they heavily diverge from the book there.
  - the_af 3y ago
    Let's hope! But... this being a work of fiction, I'd forgive them a bit of thrilling ninja action. As long as everybody understands they are like dragons in Game of Thrones: made up.
- fakedang 3y ago
  I once read that the first "ninja assassination" was basically a Japanese prince who sat under the outhouse of a rival for days, till he could attack the right butt.
Jrjrir48 3y ago
That does not mean the book is not accurate, book just has to be read certain way. If you read modern literature , there is a lot of noise and hyperbole. Like 20% females being raped while studying at college. It comes from well accepted study, was quoted in several journals, but obviously has to be open to some interpretation. My guess young samurais would prefer seppuku over chores and punishment. Perhaps look into Kyōgen to get some perspective.
stevenwoo 3y ago
They tried to fix several historical inaccuracies in the most recent show, including no Hollywood ninjas, and the Japanese already understanding guns because the Portuguese introduced them 50 years earlier but learning cannon techniques from the Adams stand-in instead, though some of the formal gestures (some sitting position IIRC) they told the performers to use the incorrect but popular forms used in Japanese movies and television about the time period. They talk about the changes they made in the after episode podcast, one of the historical consultants sometimes comes on.