3 ms·

Reminded me of the experiment to domesticate silver foxes[1]. Apparently they got quite tame foxes in just 30 generations. Interestingly, while they were selec

Reminded me of the experiment to domesticate silver foxes[1]. Apparently they got quite tame foxes in just 30 generations. Interestingly, while they were selected purely for lack of aggression towards humans they started to develop dog-like physical traits. Hasn't been replicated yet, and doubtfully will, but interesting. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

sdwr 3y ago
Really fascinating, I love the implication that domestication is tied to juvenile characteristics (getting along in a group means acting more like a kid than an adult protecting your territory / breeding rights). > "Are we domesticated in the sense of dogs? No. But I am comfortable saying that the first thing that has to happen to get a human from an apelike ancestor is a substantial increase in tolerance toward one another."
- Natsu 3y ago
  It also seems to have something to do with adrenaline, making them less fearful. It's really interesting research.
  - Zenzero 3y ago
    That is backwards. The cortisol measurement approximates the level of stress and fear. It does not cause it.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  I recall reading many years ago how humans are fundamentally juvenile even when we reach adulthood, given our propensity to socialize and more importantly play.
  - dllthomas 3y ago
    Right, because we no longer have access to the tree-of-life virus.
imzadi 3y ago
It's interesting, though, because anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that they are only barely domesticated. It might be something in the canine brain that makes it easy to domesticate them.
- Retric 3y ago
  I don't think a lot of effort was put into actually intentionally breeding cats for domestication. People seem to love them as semi wild animals and unlike dogs they aren't dangerous enough to be put down when they start biting people. On top of that a large percentage of the population are actually wild animals aka feral. Spend a lot of time with a kitten and it may become extremely affectionate, but we also habitually neuter them unlike the wild population. Go back 1,000 years and I suspect people acted similarly though without the neutering. So the external evolutionary pressure for domestication doesn't seem nearly as strong as with those foxes, and might currently be going in the other direction.
- satellite2 3y ago
  It's because dogs are wolf with the Williams Syndrome. A DNA deletion syndrome which reduces aggression and increases empathy. In humans the syndrome produces individuals with characteristic facial features, a big smile and friendly traits. Edit: visibly dog lovers are not too keen on learning that their best friends have a genetic abnormality. But that doesn't make it less true, it's pretty well documented. It doesn't mean that dogs are lesser somehow, they are still perfectly viable it the wild (well not the races resulting from the most extreme genetic selections, but most of them)
  - codexb 3y ago
    Williams syndrome is only in humans. It's not even a particularly hereditary condition. If what you said was true, we would expect to see modern day wild Wolves with this same genetic abnormality. Or we would expect to see wolves (and other predators, too) domesticated many different times in many different places, whenever this animal version of "Williams Syndrome" naturally occurred. We don't see that. There are plenty of other genetically similar canine species that aren't domesticated. There are plenty of related animal (seals, ferrets, skunks) that aren't been widely domesticated, but are completely capable of being domesticated on an individual level, and none of them possess genetic abnormalities One thing that many of these animals have in common is that they are fairly comfortable and adaptable to living in very close proximity to humans. That's true of modern day coyotes, raccoons, etc. Humans have 99.9% identical DNA. All the variation you see in humans is explained by just 0.1% genetic differences. There's no reason to believe that the same isn't true for dogs without having to resort to a rare genetic deformity.
pvg 3y ago
A few years ago someone was raising new questions about the validity of this study, it doesn't seem mentioned in the wikipedia page and I don't know how/if it was resolved or settled: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/russian-foxes-tameness-domestication https://www.sciencenews.org/article/russian-foxes-tameness-d...
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  It is mentioned in the intro section on the Wikipedia article. And as mentioned in your linked article, the dispute is disputed by others still... Hence why I added the bit about not being replicated, it's far from settled science. Intriguing though, IMHO.

sdwr 3y ago

Really fascinating, I love the implication that domestication is tied to juvenile characteristics (getting along in a group means acting more like a kid than an adult protecting your territory / breeding rights). > "Are we domesticated in the sense of dogs? No. But I am comfortable saying that the first thing that has to happen to get a human from an apelike ancestor is a substantial increase in tolerance toward one another."

Natsu 3y ago
It also seems to have something to do with adrenaline, making them less fearful. It's really interesting research.
- Zenzero 3y ago
  That is backwards. The cortisol measurement approximates the level of stress and fear. It does not cause it.
Dalewyn 3y ago
I recall reading many years ago how humans are fundamentally juvenile even when we reach adulthood, given our propensity to socialize and more importantly play.
- dllthomas 3y ago
  Right, because we no longer have access to the tree-of-life virus.

imzadi 3y ago

It's interesting, though, because anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that they are only barely domesticated. It might be something in the canine brain that makes it easy to domesticate them.

Retric 3y ago
I don't think a lot of effort was put into actually intentionally breeding cats for domestication. People seem to love them as semi wild animals and unlike dogs they aren't dangerous enough to be put down when they start biting people. On top of that a large percentage of the population are actually wild animals aka feral. Spend a lot of time with a kitten and it may become extremely affectionate, but we also habitually neuter them unlike the wild population. Go back 1,000 years and I suspect people acted similarly though without the neutering. So the external evolutionary pressure for domestication doesn't seem nearly as strong as with those foxes, and might currently be going in the other direction.
satellite2 3y ago
It's because dogs are wolf with the Williams Syndrome. A DNA deletion syndrome which reduces aggression and increases empathy. In humans the syndrome produces individuals with characteristic facial features, a big smile and friendly traits. Edit: visibly dog lovers are not too keen on learning that their best friends have a genetic abnormality. But that doesn't make it less true, it's pretty well documented. It doesn't mean that dogs are lesser somehow, they are still perfectly viable it the wild (well not the races resulting from the most extreme genetic selections, but most of them)
- codexb 3y ago
  Williams syndrome is only in humans. It's not even a particularly hereditary condition. If what you said was true, we would expect to see modern day wild Wolves with this same genetic abnormality. Or we would expect to see wolves (and other predators, too) domesticated many different times in many different places, whenever this animal version of "Williams Syndrome" naturally occurred. We don't see that. There are plenty of other genetically similar canine species that aren't domesticated. There are plenty of related animal (seals, ferrets, skunks) that aren't been widely domesticated, but are completely capable of being domesticated on an individual level, and none of them possess genetic abnormalities One thing that many of these animals have in common is that they are fairly comfortable and adaptable to living in very close proximity to humans. That's true of modern day coyotes, raccoons, etc. Humans have 99.9% identical DNA. All the variation you see in humans is explained by just 0.1% genetic differences. There's no reason to believe that the same isn't true for dogs without having to resort to a rare genetic deformity.

pvg 3y ago

A few years ago someone was raising new questions about the validity of this study, it doesn't seem mentioned in the wikipedia page and I don't know how/if it was resolved or settled: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/russian-foxes-tameness-domestication https://www.sciencenews.org/article/russian-foxes-tameness-d...

magicalhippo 3y ago
It is mentioned in the intro section on the Wikipedia article. And as mentioned in your linked article, the dispute is disputed by others still... Hence why I added the bit about not being replicated, it's far from settled science. Intriguing though, IMHO.