5 ms·

> German politicians should have taken their energy security more seriously back in the 2010s. Energy security AND national security. It was insane to build an

> German politicians should have taken their energy security more seriously back in the 2010s. Energy security AND national security. It was insane to build an economy on natural gas from a country with a long history of imperialism and autocracy, but Germans did it anyways. To be fair, the US did much the same with China with regards to manufacturing. The US was begging its NATO allies across the Atlantic to have a more skeptical view of Russia for most of the 90s and 00s, not just 10s, and concerns were brushed off as the ramblings of unsophisticated cowboys. I remember talking to Germans in January 2022 who still thought that the Russians wouldn't invade Ukraine.

mk89 3y ago
To be even more fair, US is still buying uranium from Russia... Anyway, that's how it is. The german economy profited quite well from the cheap gas. It was actually a strong decision to drop it, as the economy has a lot of heavy industry that apparently requires gas/oil. We will see how it goes in the next 5-10 years.
guappa 3y ago
The USA is not in a position to criticize… All of the computers are made abroad. I doubt banning Huawei will solve anything, if a foreign power has decided to inject malicious instructions into the hardware.
- lenerdenator 3y ago
  China spent the first 15 years it had with significant computing resources in-country using them to hack the rest of the world. Once you do that, there is no restoring trust, no matter how hard you try.
  - guappa 3y ago
    Why do we trust to buy every computer then?
    - lenerdenator 3y ago
      There's at least some incentive for China to not place snooping gear in products made in their country by other nations' companies. Let's say the factories that make MacBooks get infiltrated by Chinese intelligence and they somehow managed to put some sort of technology in the product that allowed for them to compromise it. Sooner or later US intelligence is going to find out, at which point someone in the US government is going to have a very stern talk with Tim Cook about terminating any and all business with their Chinese suppliers now. This causes ripple effects as other countries drop Chinese suppliers, causing economic problems for the country. The CCP, for all of its faults, knows that it can't continue to piss on the basic rights of Chinese citizens if the economy goes south there. It's a careful balancing act of bread, circuses, and brutally repressive totalitarian single-party politics. If you start buying Huawei infrastructure en masse, you lose that leverage over the Chinese to keep their snooping gear out of the stuff you buy from them. Again, when the mainland Chinese developed any real computer-based telecommunications in their country between 2000 and 2010, the first thing they decided to do with it was start tearing into other countries' networks and infrastructure. They did this before even creating recognizable Chinese brand names for consumer devices. They used their chance at a first impression to brand themselves as state-backed black hats, and they're going to suffer from that until there's major reforms in the Chinese government.
sofixa 3y ago
> Energy security AND national security. It was insane to build an economy on natural gas from a country with a long history of imperialism and autocracy, but Germans did it anyways This is hilarious because absolutely the same argument could be applied to most of Europe getting closely integrated economically with Germany through organisations such as the European Coal and Steel Community, European Economic Area, European Union. Germany is a nation with a long history of imperialism and autocracy, why did they do it? Was France stupid to risk depending on a country that invaded them thrice in the last century? The general hope was that economic integration will lead to closer relations and liberalisation in Russia (like it did in most of Eastern Europe). It sadly didn't happen, but it wasn't that out of the question. > The US was begging its NATO allies across the Atlantic to have a more skeptical view of Russia for most of the 90s and 00s, not just 10s, and concerns were brushed off as the ramblings of unsophisticated cowboys Yes, because the US was doing this even when Russia was on its best behaviour, so it really really looked like nobody in the US had remembered to update the "who to be scared of" instructions. Now they have and they won't fucking shut up about China, which is annoying, same as it was back when it was about Russia.
- negative_zero 3y ago
  Not really. Germany and it's predecessors have a strong history of rule of law. Russia does not.
- foobiekr 3y ago
  The US is also right about China. Europe is just bad at this.
- deburo 3y ago
  >Now they have and they won't fucking shut up about China, which is annoying, same as it was back when it was about Russia. Why is it annoying?
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Because it's generic CHINA BAD FUD without much substance. GCHQ, the UK's equivalent to the NSA, did a review of Huawei networking hardware and found it is's as insecure as equivalents from Cisco and Juniper. Yet there was a whole media FUD campaign to claim Huawei have backdoors, and the USA pushed every ally to ban Huawei equipment over those security "fears" that were completely and totally unfounded. Instead of focusing on the actual stuff like the concentration camps or abusive work practices or neoimperialism.

mk89 3y ago

To be even more fair, US is still buying uranium from Russia... Anyway, that's how it is. The german economy profited quite well from the cheap gas. It was actually a strong decision to drop it, as the economy has a lot of heavy industry that apparently requires gas/oil. We will see how it goes in the next 5-10 years.

guappa 3y ago

The USA is not in a position to criticize… All of the computers are made abroad. I doubt banning Huawei will solve anything, if a foreign power has decided to inject malicious instructions into the hardware.

lenerdenator 3y ago
China spent the first 15 years it had with significant computing resources in-country using them to hack the rest of the world. Once you do that, there is no restoring trust, no matter how hard you try.
- guappa 3y ago
  Why do we trust to buy every computer then?
  - lenerdenator 3y ago
    There's at least some incentive for China to not place snooping gear in products made in their country by other nations' companies. Let's say the factories that make MacBooks get infiltrated by Chinese intelligence and they somehow managed to put some sort of technology in the product that allowed for them to compromise it. Sooner or later US intelligence is going to find out, at which point someone in the US government is going to have a very stern talk with Tim Cook about terminating any and all business with their Chinese suppliers now. This causes ripple effects as other countries drop Chinese suppliers, causing economic problems for the country. The CCP, for all of its faults, knows that it can't continue to piss on the basic rights of Chinese citizens if the economy goes south there. It's a careful balancing act of bread, circuses, and brutally repressive totalitarian single-party politics. If you start buying Huawei infrastructure en masse, you lose that leverage over the Chinese to keep their snooping gear out of the stuff you buy from them. Again, when the mainland Chinese developed any real computer-based telecommunications in their country between 2000 and 2010, the first thing they decided to do with it was start tearing into other countries' networks and infrastructure. They did this before even creating recognizable Chinese brand names for consumer devices. They used their chance at a first impression to brand themselves as state-backed black hats, and they're going to suffer from that until there's major reforms in the Chinese government.

sofixa 3y ago

> Energy security AND national security. It was insane to build an economy on natural gas from a country with a long history of imperialism and autocracy, but Germans did it anyways This is hilarious because absolutely the same argument could be applied to most of Europe getting closely integrated economically with Germany through organisations such as the European Coal and Steel Community, European Economic Area, European Union. Germany is a nation with a long history of imperialism and autocracy, why did they do it? Was France stupid to risk depending on a country that invaded them thrice in the last century? The general hope was that economic integration will lead to closer relations and liberalisation in Russia (like it did in most of Eastern Europe). It sadly didn't happen, but it wasn't that out of the question. > The US was begging its NATO allies across the Atlantic to have a more skeptical view of Russia for most of the 90s and 00s, not just 10s, and concerns were brushed off as the ramblings of unsophisticated cowboys Yes, because the US was doing this even when Russia was on its best behaviour, so it really really looked like nobody in the US had remembered to update the "who to be scared of" instructions. Now they have and they won't fucking shut up about China, which is annoying, same as it was back when it was about Russia.

negative_zero 3y ago
Not really. Germany and it's predecessors have a strong history of rule of law. Russia does not.
foobiekr 3y ago
The US is also right about China. Europe is just bad at this.
deburo 3y ago
>Now they have and they won't fucking shut up about China, which is annoying, same as it was back when it was about Russia. Why is it annoying?
- sofixa 3y ago
  Because it's generic CHINA BAD FUD without much substance. GCHQ, the UK's equivalent to the NSA, did a review of Huawei networking hardware and found it is's as insecure as equivalents from Cisco and Juniper. Yet there was a whole media FUD campaign to claim Huawei have backdoors, and the USA pushed every ally to ban Huawei equipment over those security "fears" that were completely and totally unfounded. Instead of focusing on the actual stuff like the concentration camps or abusive work practices or neoimperialism.