6 ms·

Mostly because Microsoft doesn't really gatekeep Windows and is actually compliant with the DMA; they were motioning to the same tricks as the other gatekeepers

Mostly because Microsoft doesn't really gatekeep Windows and is actually compliant with the DMA; they were motioning to the same tricks as the other gatekeepers (main one is forced bundling), but the DMA caused them to retract on all of those changes. Right now, you can properly remove all Windows apps from W11, which was really the big one that they started doing with Windows 10 alongside the Microsoft account push in OOBE (dunno if that one is still required). They also supposedly made actually disabling the Windows telemetry much more feasible than it used to be.

bilbo0s 3y ago
Not tryiing to be argumentative, rather I geenuinely have a serious question. But doesn't MS gatekeep xbox?
- noirscape 3y ago
  They do, but Xbox isn't considered a large enough market to be considered a gatekeeper affected by the DMA. None of the major console makers are. The platform must have any of the following to be a DMA gatekeeper: * Market capitalization of at least €75 billion. * More than €7.5 billion turnover from EEA residents. * At least 45 million customers in EEA. * At least 4.5 million business customers in EEA. Once any of those criteria are met for 3 years, they qualify as a Gatekeeper. While the gaming market is massive, any individual console platform still sits pretty comfortably below those criteria. You can find the customer number by googling around a bit - Xbox only has around 3 million active customers if I'm not mistaken (counted by Xbox Live accounts that were active in the past year). A platform truly needs to be collosal to be considered a Gatekeeper. This law is specifically for the large platforms, not small fry.
  - InsomniacL 3y ago
    > Xbox only has around 3 million active customers This seems very low given: > As of 2022, Microsoft announced around 120 million monthly active users (MAUs).
    - noirscape 3y ago
      Mind that Xbox is much smaller outside the US and the UK compared to the other console makers. From the top of my head, the percentage counts for Europe in console market share are around 50/40/10 (Nintendo/Sony/Xbox). So yes, they probably have 120 million MAUs globally, but the overwhelming majority of those will be coming from the US, where Xbox controls about half the console market. (Just for completeness sake: Xbox has almost no presence in Asia, South America or Africa - their failures in Asia are well documented and Xbox does no advertising whatsoever in South America whilst the African gaming market isn't large enough to be worth considering since there are other priorities there). And of course, those users aren't considered for EU legislation since the US isn't part of the EEA.
      - nottorp 3y ago
        Interesting enough, back in the ps3/ps4 days everyone in my corner of Eastern Europe seemed to have gone for an xbox (and maybe even an xbox 360). In the past few years, the xboxes were always in stock while people were joining waiting lists and lotteries * for the PS5. * One large electronics chain actually had a lottery for the PS5 preorders at launch, because they weren't getting enough to cover what was already paid for! Some lucky people got a PS5 the rest got their money back :)
        bombcar 3y ago
        Every generation has the "most piracy friendly console" and that one often does quite well, for that and other reasons. The Xbox was king there for awhile.
        nottorp 3y ago
        That too. I guess people have got used to paying for games now and are picking the console based on exclusives/general experience. In my mind the xbox is for dudebro shooters and the playstation is for original, creative games. Things may have changed from the original xbox but it's too late for me.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I wonder if the monetary values will be regularly adjusted for inflation. If not, then it’s only a matter of time, waiting for money to be devalued and then the platforms qualify.
- p_l 3y ago
  As far as I know game consoles live in a slightly different legal space where there's no assumption that they are supposed to be "open" systems.
  - 3836293648 3y ago
    Nope, they're just not big enough to be covered by the relevant parts of the DMA. Only "gatekeepers" are.
- grishka 3y ago
  Xbox is a video game appliance, not a general-purpose computing platform.
  - tacocataco 3y ago
    Perhaps E-waste could be reduced if it were general purpose?
  - jmb99 3y ago
    iPhone is a mobile application appliance, not a general-purpose computing platform.
    - grishka 3y ago
      Yep, it can run general-purpose mobile applications. Which makes it a general-purpose computing platform.
      - jmb99 3y ago
        Why can’t an Xbox run general purpose applications? Windows 11 can run both video games and general purpose applications on Xen 2 CPUs and RDNA2 GPUs. The current Xbox OS is a Windows NT kernel running under Hyper-V, same as desktop Windows 11. Microsoft even claims the Xbox OS is based on Windows (because why wouldn’t it be). It can even run Universal Windows apps installed from the Microsoft store. So, what makes it not a general purpose computing platform? Unless you mean to argue that a computer with a Xen 2 CPU, RDNA 2 GPU, running an OS based off of Windows 11 that can run Universal Windows applications is not general-purpose.
        grishka 3y ago
        > So, what makes it not a general purpose computing platform? Public perception. An overwhelming majority of people who buy an Xbox (or a PlayStation, or a Switch) buy one just to play games. They don't expect it to do anything else. The manufacturers don't market their consoles as general-purpose devices either, they market them specifically as appliances for playing video games. Their SDKs also aren't publicly available. If building iOS apps in 2008 was the same process as console games, would the iPhone be as successful as it is today? Imagine having to be a company, proving that your app idea is worthwhile, signing a million NDAs, and finally getting a devkit just so you could make a farting app (those were popular in the early days of the app store). The app review process back then was also much more forgiving and sensible than it is today. Things Apple does when it has to compete on its own merits!
askonomm 3y ago
You can? Last I tried I couldn't remove Edge, could not change search engine used in the Windows search to anything other than Bing, every new windows update would default install new apps like Candy Crush and Amazon Prime I never wanted, and so on, and disabling Windows telemetery seems impossible without registry hacks. Ever installed a new Win11? Riddled with dark pattern UX to deceive you into extra telemetry.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nottorp 3y ago
  I think they only allow all those things in the EU, and only in a very recent update.
- saratogacx 3y ago
  The way MS did this was kind of dodge but fits the letter of the law. On a new install of Windows 11, if you select an EU region, you will have the options to remove things like edge in the OS. You can move off that region because this flag is set only on install. If you install with a non-eu region, you don't have access to those options.
  - noirscape 3y ago
    Being slightly late to the party with this comment, but according to XDA, the entire thing is just controlled by a JSON file in System32 (why it's not the registry is beyond me)[0]. Just for future reference if you want to disable it later. [0]: https://www.xda-developers.com/enable-eea-restricted-features-on-windows-10-11/ https://www.xda-developers.com/enable-eea-restricted-feature...
- asadotzler 3y ago
  To get Europe's protections, you need to be in Europe (or faking it somehow). If you live in the US or somewhere else outside of Europe, these companies will continue to screw you because you don't have Europe working on behalf of your privacy and choice.
faeriechangling 3y ago
It’s hard to buy windows without buying Teams along with it, that’s how they crushed slack.
- rezonant 3y ago
  That's easy. I think you mean it's hard to buy _Office_ without buying Teams, which is true.
BlackFly 3y ago
I am unable to uninstall Edge although I see from news briefs it will be possible in April. I am unable to even see Defender listed although it is clearly separable and I do not think they are going to enable uninstallation; if not then I would say they are still not compliant, but I understand how browsers are more of a focus at the moment.

bilbo0s 3y ago

Not tryiing to be argumentative, rather I geenuinely have a serious question. But doesn't MS gatekeep xbox?

noirscape 3y ago
They do, but Xbox isn't considered a large enough market to be considered a gatekeeper affected by the DMA. None of the major console makers are. The platform must have any of the following to be a DMA gatekeeper: * Market capitalization of at least €75 billion. * More than €7.5 billion turnover from EEA residents. * At least 45 million customers in EEA. * At least 4.5 million business customers in EEA. Once any of those criteria are met for 3 years, they qualify as a Gatekeeper. While the gaming market is massive, any individual console platform still sits pretty comfortably below those criteria. You can find the customer number by googling around a bit - Xbox only has around 3 million active customers if I'm not mistaken (counted by Xbox Live accounts that were active in the past year). A platform truly needs to be collosal to be considered a Gatekeeper. This law is specifically for the large platforms, not small fry.
- InsomniacL 3y ago
  > Xbox only has around 3 million active customers This seems very low given: > As of 2022, Microsoft announced around 120 million monthly active users (MAUs).
  - noirscape 3y ago
    Mind that Xbox is much smaller outside the US and the UK compared to the other console makers. From the top of my head, the percentage counts for Europe in console market share are around 50/40/10 (Nintendo/Sony/Xbox). So yes, they probably have 120 million MAUs globally, but the overwhelming majority of those will be coming from the US, where Xbox controls about half the console market. (Just for completeness sake: Xbox has almost no presence in Asia, South America or Africa - their failures in Asia are well documented and Xbox does no advertising whatsoever in South America whilst the African gaming market isn't large enough to be worth considering since there are other priorities there). And of course, those users aren't considered for EU legislation since the US isn't part of the EEA.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      Interesting enough, back in the ps3/ps4 days everyone in my corner of Eastern Europe seemed to have gone for an xbox (and maybe even an xbox 360). In the past few years, the xboxes were always in stock while people were joining waiting lists and lotteries * for the PS5. * One large electronics chain actually had a lottery for the PS5 preorders at launch, because they weren't getting enough to cover what was already paid for! Some lucky people got a PS5 the rest got their money back :)
      - bombcar 3y ago
        Every generation has the "most piracy friendly console" and that one often does quite well, for that and other reasons. The Xbox was king there for awhile.
        nottorp 3y ago
        That too. I guess people have got used to paying for games now and are picking the console based on exclusives/general experience. In my mind the xbox is for dudebro shooters and the playstation is for original, creative games. Things may have changed from the original xbox but it's too late for me.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I wonder if the monetary values will be regularly adjusted for inflation. If not, then it’s only a matter of time, waiting for money to be devalued and then the platforms qualify.
p_l 3y ago
As far as I know game consoles live in a slightly different legal space where there's no assumption that they are supposed to be "open" systems.
- 3836293648 3y ago
  Nope, they're just not big enough to be covered by the relevant parts of the DMA. Only "gatekeepers" are.
grishka 3y ago
Xbox is a video game appliance, not a general-purpose computing platform.
- tacocataco 3y ago
  Perhaps E-waste could be reduced if it were general purpose?
- jmb99 3y ago
  iPhone is a mobile application appliance, not a general-purpose computing platform.
  - grishka 3y ago
    Yep, it can run general-purpose mobile applications. Which makes it a general-purpose computing platform.
    - jmb99 3y ago
      Why can’t an Xbox run general purpose applications? Windows 11 can run both video games and general purpose applications on Xen 2 CPUs and RDNA2 GPUs. The current Xbox OS is a Windows NT kernel running under Hyper-V, same as desktop Windows 11. Microsoft even claims the Xbox OS is based on Windows (because why wouldn’t it be). It can even run Universal Windows apps installed from the Microsoft store. So, what makes it not a general purpose computing platform? Unless you mean to argue that a computer with a Xen 2 CPU, RDNA 2 GPU, running an OS based off of Windows 11 that can run Universal Windows applications is not general-purpose.
      - grishka 3y ago
        > So, what makes it not a general purpose computing platform? Public perception. An overwhelming majority of people who buy an Xbox (or a PlayStation, or a Switch) buy one just to play games. They don't expect it to do anything else. The manufacturers don't market their consoles as general-purpose devices either, they market them specifically as appliances for playing video games. Their SDKs also aren't publicly available. If building iOS apps in 2008 was the same process as console games, would the iPhone be as successful as it is today? Imagine having to be a company, proving that your app idea is worthwhile, signing a million NDAs, and finally getting a devkit just so you could make a farting app (those were popular in the early days of the app store). The app review process back then was also much more forgiving and sensible than it is today. Things Apple does when it has to compete on its own merits!

askonomm 3y ago

You can? Last I tried I couldn't remove Edge, could not change search engine used in the Windows search to anything other than Bing, every new windows update would default install new apps like Candy Crush and Amazon Prime I never wanted, and so on, and disabling Windows telemetery seems impossible without registry hacks. Ever installed a new Win11? Riddled with dark pattern UX to deceive you into extra telemetry.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nottorp 3y ago
I think they only allow all those things in the EU, and only in a very recent update.
saratogacx 3y ago
The way MS did this was kind of dodge but fits the letter of the law. On a new install of Windows 11, if you select an EU region, you will have the options to remove things like edge in the OS. You can move off that region because this flag is set only on install. If you install with a non-eu region, you don't have access to those options.
- noirscape 3y ago
  Being slightly late to the party with this comment, but according to XDA, the entire thing is just controlled by a JSON file in System32 (why it's not the registry is beyond me)[0]. Just for future reference if you want to disable it later. [0]: https://www.xda-developers.com/enable-eea-restricted-features-on-windows-10-11/ https://www.xda-developers.com/enable-eea-restricted-feature...
asadotzler 3y ago
To get Europe's protections, you need to be in Europe (or faking it somehow). If you live in the US or somewhere else outside of Europe, these companies will continue to screw you because you don't have Europe working on behalf of your privacy and choice.

faeriechangling 3y ago

It’s hard to buy windows without buying Teams along with it, that’s how they crushed slack.

rezonant 3y ago
That's easy. I think you mean it's hard to buy _Office_ without buying Teams, which is true.

BlackFly 3y ago

I am unable to uninstall Edge although I see from news briefs it will be possible in April. I am unable to even see Defender listed although it is clearly separable and I do not think they are going to enable uninstallation; if not then I would say they are still not compliant, but I understand how browsers are more of a focus at the moment.