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>treating animals well At any farm where animals are bred as commercial food sources we don't treat them with dignity. Another farm on the way - https://www.np

>treating animals well At any farm where animals are bred as commercial food sources we don't treat them with dignity. Another farm on the way - https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1229233837/octopus-farm-spain-controversy https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1229233837/octopus-farm-spain...

zilti 3y ago
There are lots of farms where animals are treated well and with dignity. At least over here in Switzerland. Source: worked at one, and saw a lot of them (my father worked as a vet).
- telesilla 3y ago
  Yes, I've also visited and lived on such farms. They are for small specialist production, I wouldn't say commercial. Great that you know more of them: it proves we can treat animals very well and still have (albeit at low quantity) meat production.
  - zilti 3y ago
    It isn't "small specialist". It's the norm in Switzerland, because the law demands it.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  Are they industrialized farms?
- Voultapher 3y ago
  Who are you fooling here? Yourself? Imagine your children being born into one of these farms. There is no self determination. Only because we are not overtly cruel doesn't mean we don't treat them like slaves. "Look at my slave, now that I impregnated her she gets to have a couple more square meter to walk around in until her children are taken away from her." Not all farms are equally bad, but there is no farm where if you applied the same treatment to humans it would not constitute human rights violations. You might argue non human animals are different, but why does that matter? Black and white people are different, why would that difference justify enslaving one group?
  - short_sells_poo 3y ago
    Are there bad actors in farming even in Switzerland? Sure. But the majority of the farms I've been to have treated their animals with respect and kindness. The cows actually spend most of their time out on the pastures grazing freely. They are only taken indoors when the weather gets too cold for them in winter. It's very far from what people picture when talking about industrial farming in the US. It is true that there's an ultimate cruelty to keeping farm animals: we do it so eventually we can kill and eat them. So if you argue against all meat consumption by humans, then it is true: no keeper of animals can be considered "fit for keeping humans". Even a small farm purely for the owner's own consumption places restrictions on the livestock's freedom and ultimately keeps them so they can be eaten. Even animals that we keep as pets could be considered to live in inhuman conditions, because we restrict their freedoms.
    - sweetheart 3y ago
      Treating an animal well sometimes does not mean that the animal was treated well. It's nice that the cows you're talking about are given lots of access to pastures, but that doesn't mean that anything else can be done to the animal without it qualifying as disrespectful or unkind. I can't think of another situation in which one could choose to kill an animal for pleasure at 10% it's lifespan, and think that this was kind or respectful. Can you?
      - blendergeek 3y ago
        When a lion kills a gazelle on the savannah, is that "kind and respectful"? No, it's just part of the "circle of life". Humans also interact with their environment and eat non human life forms (plants, cows, etc). If we prove that trees have consciousness, will we need to stop killing them as well? Where does it end?
        toss1 3y ago
        Where it should end is with humans creating engineered (whether genetic-engineered, or using fungi, etc. is irrelevant) foods and materials such that we don't need to be farming, brutalizing, and killing animals and plants on industrial scales, deforesting vast regions to graze cattle, etc.. We are likely generations away from that, but it does seem to be the direction we're headed.
- sweetheart 3y ago
  > There are lots of farms where animals are treated well and with dignity. What practices are used that constitute good treatment with dignity? And what animals are you talking about, and producing what goods? I ask because I find that most people who say stuff like this think that a dairy cow with access to open pastures is treated well, and with dignity, but then overlook the fact that the animal is routinely artificially impregnated, separated from their calf over and over and over again, and then killed at a quarter of her natural lifespan because her milk production is no longer economically beneficial to the company that "owns" her. I'm not trying to say that that's the case here, just trying to get specific because I talk with a lot of people who say similar things as you, and I want to know if you're saying something substantially different or not.

zilti 3y ago

There are lots of farms where animals are treated well and with dignity. At least over here in Switzerland. Source: worked at one, and saw a lot of them (my father worked as a vet).

telesilla 3y ago
Yes, I've also visited and lived on such farms. They are for small specialist production, I wouldn't say commercial. Great that you know more of them: it proves we can treat animals very well and still have (albeit at low quantity) meat production.
- zilti 3y ago
  It isn't "small specialist". It's the norm in Switzerland, because the law demands it.
wahnfrieden 3y ago
Are they industrialized farms?
Voultapher 3y ago
Who are you fooling here? Yourself? Imagine your children being born into one of these farms. There is no self determination. Only because we are not overtly cruel doesn't mean we don't treat them like slaves. "Look at my slave, now that I impregnated her she gets to have a couple more square meter to walk around in until her children are taken away from her." Not all farms are equally bad, but there is no farm where if you applied the same treatment to humans it would not constitute human rights violations. You might argue non human animals are different, but why does that matter? Black and white people are different, why would that difference justify enslaving one group?
- short_sells_poo 3y ago
  Are there bad actors in farming even in Switzerland? Sure. But the majority of the farms I've been to have treated their animals with respect and kindness. The cows actually spend most of their time out on the pastures grazing freely. They are only taken indoors when the weather gets too cold for them in winter. It's very far from what people picture when talking about industrial farming in the US. It is true that there's an ultimate cruelty to keeping farm animals: we do it so eventually we can kill and eat them. So if you argue against all meat consumption by humans, then it is true: no keeper of animals can be considered "fit for keeping humans". Even a small farm purely for the owner's own consumption places restrictions on the livestock's freedom and ultimately keeps them so they can be eaten. Even animals that we keep as pets could be considered to live in inhuman conditions, because we restrict their freedoms.
  - sweetheart 3y ago
    Treating an animal well sometimes does not mean that the animal was treated well. It's nice that the cows you're talking about are given lots of access to pastures, but that doesn't mean that anything else can be done to the animal without it qualifying as disrespectful or unkind. I can't think of another situation in which one could choose to kill an animal for pleasure at 10% it's lifespan, and think that this was kind or respectful. Can you?
    - blendergeek 3y ago
      When a lion kills a gazelle on the savannah, is that "kind and respectful"? No, it's just part of the "circle of life". Humans also interact with their environment and eat non human life forms (plants, cows, etc). If we prove that trees have consciousness, will we need to stop killing them as well? Where does it end?
      - toss1 3y ago
        Where it should end is with humans creating engineered (whether genetic-engineered, or using fungi, etc. is irrelevant) foods and materials such that we don't need to be farming, brutalizing, and killing animals and plants on industrial scales, deforesting vast regions to graze cattle, etc.. We are likely generations away from that, but it does seem to be the direction we're headed.
sweetheart 3y ago
> There are lots of farms where animals are treated well and with dignity. What practices are used that constitute good treatment with dignity? And what animals are you talking about, and producing what goods? I ask because I find that most people who say stuff like this think that a dairy cow with access to open pastures is treated well, and with dignity, but then overlook the fact that the animal is routinely artificially impregnated, separated from their calf over and over and over again, and then killed at a quarter of her natural lifespan because her milk production is no longer economically beneficial to the company that "owns" her. I'm not trying to say that that's the case here, just trying to get specific because I talk with a lot of people who say similar things as you, and I want to know if you're saying something substantially different or not.