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It's amazing how defeated we are as citizens and consumers. Ideally we wouldn't hear that GM is just walking this back, but that GM executives who cooked up th

It's amazing how defeated we are as citizens and consumers. Ideally we wouldn't hear that GM is just walking this back, but that GM executives who cooked up this scheme were already indicted and facing serious federal prison time. Selling personally identifiable tracking information like this is akin to AT&T selling recordings of all your voice calls to the highest bidder.

b112 3y ago
More like, AT&T selling location and tower tracking data, linked to your identity and unique phone info, such as GSM Sim serial numbers and so on, which can be linked to your phone. And even if you use pay-as-you-go SIMs, if you use a credit card once, your real-world ID is linked to the phone. And even selling services like alerts when such providers move out of a geo-located region, a person's domicile, and so on. Of course, that'd never happen... right? I agree that this -- all of this, needs to be defined as criminal activity. That once such laws are passed, boards of directors, and executives face jail time, should they breach such laws. What we'll likely need, in the end, is a mandated CTO position, with responsibilities and duties akin to a CFO.
- m463 3y ago
  I found it interesting how your cellphone location data is sold with your implied consent. Like if you are looking for roadside assistance.
  - doredi 3y ago
    Part of the issue is how we are conditioned by the ruling class to use benign words like "interesting" when we know more accurate words would convey passion, meaning, and actual anger towards those who want our data.
    - bborud 3y ago
      If you allow there to be a ruling class in a democracy, is it still a democracy?
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > If you allow there to be a ruling class in a democracy, is it still a democracy Yes, democracy is about fracturing the elite and making its membership more porous. Not wand waving it away.
    - m463 3y ago
      I used the word more tongue-in-cheek. Not that I don't agree with your point about ambiguous use of words, or euphemisms to minimize or normalize bad behavior. Words like "telemetry" or "advertising", which nowadays mean "conduct surveillance on someone and keep a detailed dossier"
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >What we'll likely need, in the end, is a mandated CTO position, with responsibilities and duties akin to a CFO. Yeah, let's mandate a position where people are calling for your head (literally) when you make a stupid call. Who wants the job? Any takers?
  - fragmede 3y ago
    CISO is a well paid job for exactly that reason.
  - alwa 3y ago
    If you don’t set high expectations and hold decisionmakers accountable to the consequences of their decisions, why would you expect the quality of their decisions to be high rather than merely expedient? It sounds like the pay for that position should be high enough to compensate for the risk, and that the penalty for failure should be consequential enough that only people with the talent, skills, and judgment to be confident in their decisions would take the job. The financial people have skin in the game in the form of this kind of personal legal liability, and that seems to keep the financial shenanigans mainly on the “obscure but within the letter of the law” side of the line no matter what kind of pressure the CEO might bring to bear to cook the books. When security and technical governance are a cost center and compliance is optional (or, at worst, a potential PR threat)—and when privacy has no concrete value but data does—wouldn’t it be bad business not to monetize the data and be quiet about it so as to minimize the PR threat?
Jensson 3y ago
GDPR solves exactly this, they are legally not allowed to sell this data in EU without explicit consent from you describing who to sell it to.
- frankjr 3y ago
  Wouldn't this be covered by some innocent looking paragraph hidden in the middle of the contract when buying the car?
  - xxs 3y ago
    it won't stand in regards to GDPR. GDPR consent has to be freely given (and taken at any time), can't use legal lingo either.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    legal consent in GDPR needs to be understandable, can not be hidden in any way, and easy to remove. The common lawyer's hack of hiding it in a big long unreadable contract won't cut it, and should lead to fines. Everybody talks crap about the GDPR, but as someone who, while not a lawyer, has worked on technical laws and standardization, I gotta say they really did a great job on not letting any companies have an easy out.
    - xxs 3y ago
      gotta agree, it's a very approachable piece of regulation for a non-lawyer.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > innocent looking paragraph hidden in the middle of the contract This is the source of the problem and requires legislation to fix. Starting with clickwrap.
  - ledoge 3y ago
    Facebook tried to pull something similar, and it was eventually ruled illegal: https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-win-personalized-ads-facebook-instagram-and-whatsapp-declared-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-win-personalized-ads-facebook-instag...
itsoktocry 3y ago
>but that GM executives who cooked up this scheme were already indicted and facing serious federal prison time. This is not remotely close to having your personal phone calls recorded and sold. Not even close. Guess what? Your terrible driving habits put me and my family at risk, so I'm not up in arms if your insurance company knows about it when you aren't pretending to drive safely in front of a police officer. If you continuously break laws and can't afford insurance, everyone wins (but you). Did GM overstep? Probably. People complained and it's rectified. The idea that you want to throw executives in prison for a long time for this is beyond absurd.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fragmede 3y ago
  My insurance company knowing how aggressively I drive, vs someone knowing exactly where I am, is an important distinction to make. Knowing that I'm doing 110 and weaving in and out of traffic and putting you at risk is one thing. knowing that I don't do that and am driving safely but knowing which 7-11 I'm parked out in front of, is not. Jail time for executives is how to incentivize corporations to behave a certain way beyond leveling fines. Look how quickly Craigslist closed their personals ads after FOSTA was passed. I don't agree with FOSTA, and think it does more harm than good, but jail time for executives is not absurd. I don't want people I don't know tracking my exact location, it's as simple as that.

b112 3y ago

More like, AT&T selling location and tower tracking data, linked to your identity and unique phone info, such as GSM Sim serial numbers and so on, which can be linked to your phone. And even if you use pay-as-you-go SIMs, if you use a credit card once, your real-world ID is linked to the phone. And even selling services like alerts when such providers move out of a geo-located region, a person's domicile, and so on. Of course, that'd never happen... right? I agree that this -- all of this, needs to be defined as criminal activity. That once such laws are passed, boards of directors, and executives face jail time, should they breach such laws. What we'll likely need, in the end, is a mandated CTO position, with responsibilities and duties akin to a CFO.

m463 3y ago
I found it interesting how your cellphone location data is sold with your implied consent. Like if you are looking for roadside assistance.
- doredi 3y ago
  Part of the issue is how we are conditioned by the ruling class to use benign words like "interesting" when we know more accurate words would convey passion, meaning, and actual anger towards those who want our data.
  - bborud 3y ago
    If you allow there to be a ruling class in a democracy, is it still a democracy?
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > If you allow there to be a ruling class in a democracy, is it still a democracy Yes, democracy is about fracturing the elite and making its membership more porous. Not wand waving it away.
  - m463 3y ago
    I used the word more tongue-in-cheek. Not that I don't agree with your point about ambiguous use of words, or euphemisms to minimize or normalize bad behavior. Words like "telemetry" or "advertising", which nowadays mean "conduct surveillance on someone and keep a detailed dossier"
itsoktocry 3y ago
>What we'll likely need, in the end, is a mandated CTO position, with responsibilities and duties akin to a CFO. Yeah, let's mandate a position where people are calling for your head (literally) when you make a stupid call. Who wants the job? Any takers?
- fragmede 3y ago
  CISO is a well paid job for exactly that reason.
- alwa 3y ago
  If you don’t set high expectations and hold decisionmakers accountable to the consequences of their decisions, why would you expect the quality of their decisions to be high rather than merely expedient? It sounds like the pay for that position should be high enough to compensate for the risk, and that the penalty for failure should be consequential enough that only people with the talent, skills, and judgment to be confident in their decisions would take the job. The financial people have skin in the game in the form of this kind of personal legal liability, and that seems to keep the financial shenanigans mainly on the “obscure but within the letter of the law” side of the line no matter what kind of pressure the CEO might bring to bear to cook the books. When security and technical governance are a cost center and compliance is optional (or, at worst, a potential PR threat)—and when privacy has no concrete value but data does—wouldn’t it be bad business not to monetize the data and be quiet about it so as to minimize the PR threat?

Jensson 3y ago

GDPR solves exactly this, they are legally not allowed to sell this data in EU without explicit consent from you describing who to sell it to.

frankjr 3y ago
Wouldn't this be covered by some innocent looking paragraph hidden in the middle of the contract when buying the car?
- xxs 3y ago
  it won't stand in regards to GDPR. GDPR consent has to be freely given (and taken at any time), can't use legal lingo either.
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  legal consent in GDPR needs to be understandable, can not be hidden in any way, and easy to remove. The common lawyer's hack of hiding it in a big long unreadable contract won't cut it, and should lead to fines. Everybody talks crap about the GDPR, but as someone who, while not a lawyer, has worked on technical laws and standardization, I gotta say they really did a great job on not letting any companies have an easy out.
  - xxs 3y ago
    gotta agree, it's a very approachable piece of regulation for a non-lawyer.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > innocent looking paragraph hidden in the middle of the contract This is the source of the problem and requires legislation to fix. Starting with clickwrap.
- ledoge 3y ago
  Facebook tried to pull something similar, and it was eventually ruled illegal: https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-win-personalized-ads-facebook-instagram-and-whatsapp-declared-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-win-personalized-ads-facebook-instag...

itsoktocry 3y ago

>but that GM executives who cooked up this scheme were already indicted and facing serious federal prison time. This is not remotely close to having your personal phone calls recorded and sold. Not even close. Guess what? Your terrible driving habits put me and my family at risk, so I'm not up in arms if your insurance company knows about it when you aren't pretending to drive safely in front of a police officer. If you continuously break laws and can't afford insurance, everyone wins (but you). Did GM overstep? Probably. People complained and it's rectified. The idea that you want to throw executives in prison for a long time for this is beyond absurd.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fragmede 3y ago
My insurance company knowing how aggressively I drive, vs someone knowing exactly where I am, is an important distinction to make. Knowing that I'm doing 110 and weaving in and out of traffic and putting you at risk is one thing. knowing that I don't do that and am driving safely but knowing which 7-11 I'm parked out in front of, is not. Jail time for executives is how to incentivize corporations to behave a certain way beyond leveling fines. Look how quickly Craigslist closed their personals ads after FOSTA was passed. I don't agree with FOSTA, and think it does more harm than good, but jail time for executives is not absurd. I don't want people I don't know tracking my exact location, it's as simple as that.