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I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism

by bergie 14y ago

I moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc) On the slightly negative side: * bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser * Rental agencies really try to fleece you Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. For example a month in some co-working space.

bergie 14y ago
C-base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base) and co-up (http://co-up.de/ http://co-up.de/) would probably be good starting points for a visiting hacker. I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one.
- hnhg 14y ago
  Thanks. Would be great if anyone else has anything to add. Have been looking into this for a while and this has been very useful.
- orbitahl 14y ago
  >I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one. Coming from Tallinn to see Berlinale in February, I had a misfortune of not having a desk in my hotel room during my stay there. Thankfully, St. Oberholz was just around the corner. I spent most most of the days working there and met many great people from artists and art curators to programmers and entrepreneurs, and it seemed that about third of visitors came from Denmark/Sweden/Iceland and the US/Canada. As much I could gather, Oberholz was the place were tech people could work when they didn't have a office space for themselves or wanted some rest from their primary offices. The place is overcrowded most of the time so you don't have a luxury for your own private table, and more often than not, you'll have to ask for a place at someones table. They also provided almost decent wifi, which really isn't really the norm for the majority of places in Berlin. On the broader perspective, Berlin is a great city with a good vibe attached to it, and I have been thinking of moving there for a while now.
- derrida 14y ago
  There are also a number of other hacker-spaces and the Chaos Computer Club. There is one hacker space devoted entirely to the intersection between Textiles and Electronics. Just a warning, Berlin is not the valley. It is it's own unique and awesome thing. A huge proportion of the hacking community couldn't care less about start ups. But it is a large community, and I can't speak for everyone.
  - happimess 14y ago
    Do you have any links for the other hacker spaces in Berlin? I'll be travelling there in the very near future, and will likely need a space to work while I'm there. I'll be there for a month, and don't mind paying a membership fee. I already checked out c-base, co.up, and Sankt Oberholz, linked above. They look promising, but more information can only help.
    - redbad 14y ago
      Another popular coworking café in Kreuzberg is The Nest, http://cafenest.de http://cafenest.de.
pdelgallego 14y ago
> Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens
- masklinn 14y ago
  > Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens Could you give some details of that?
  - mseebach 14y ago
    So, there are EU regulations in place that are supposed to make money laundering harder. This raises the bar everywhere. I suppose he's not referring directly to a bank account, but to our lovely home grown credit-masking-as-debit-card "Dankort" without which you might as well not have a bank account. Since they are in fact credit cards, banks are reluctant handing these out to people they might never see again.
    - _delirium 14y ago
      I'm a foreigner with a bank account and no Dankort, and I haven't really found it a huge hassle. While it's hard to get a Dankort, it's easy to get a Visa Elektron, which most places accept without fees (unlike foreign credit/debit cards). And the only things I've found really necessary about a Danish bank account are: 1) having an account to designate as a NemKonto; and 2) being able to use the betalingsservice through netbanking, e.g. to pay my rent, utilities, and TV license fee. For smaller things, I haven't found just using cash to be problematic, even if most Danes don't pay in cash.
      - mseebach 14y ago
        Fair enough. I'm happy Electron is gaining ground. Not too many years ago, an Electron basically limited you to withdraw cash (for a fee) from other bank's ATMs and pay in a few places - not including most supermarkets.
zeemonkee 14y ago
> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective). - register with tax office - register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be sufficent; but no) - register with the Maistratti (um...) - register with police station (hey, I've just given my address details to the tax office, KELA, and Maistratti, but let's waste another half a day in a police station in middle of nowhere, Espoo). But whatever, glad to be doing my part to support the National Bureaucrat Jobs Program.
- mseebach 14y ago
  Getting started as an EU foreigner in UK: - HMRC - Council tax - NI number - Local doctor - Voter registration Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely bad from a British perspective :)
  - hnhg 14y ago
    Yeah, and getting hold of the HRMC or any of these bodies over the phone can be very difficult. Apologies for that. I once got hit by a HMRC error and it was impossible for me to reach them to correct it while they fined me. Of course, they didn't admit that it was their error and that I took too long to get back to them...
  - zeemonkee 14y ago
    All good points - from a foreigner's perspective in either country. I think the key here is not web/non-web but the government in question having an intelligent, joined-up registration system. In the case of Finland, once I'd registered with the tax office my address and other details should have been registered in the system. KELA would be notified - along with all my income details - and the magistrate and police would have up-to-date records. Done, one visit to one office.
pimeys 14y ago
I moved to Berlin also from Helsinki last autumn to work in a start-up. What I should add to your list is the open-mindedness of the people: it is one of the most liberal places I've ever been. People are nice, the police won't arrest you so easily for spending a splendid day in a local park and of course the nightlife. When I visited Berkeley and New York this spring, it was really a joy to be back home.
- ap22213 14y ago
  Why would the police arrest you for spending a day in the park?
  - pimeys 14y ago
    If you like to drink beer or smoke cigarettes in a public park, for example. Or smoke weed.
    - bane 14y ago
      so basically doing things that are against the local laws
      - pimeys 14y ago
        It's not illegal to drink beer in public places (like the subways, parks, streets) and it's also legal to smoke tobacco in many places. Weed is not legal, but it's tolerated and discriminated.
        bane 14y ago
        Only they are not legal in NYC given the scenario described. NYC has open container laws (no open alchoholic containers in public), public smoking laws (particularly in public Parks) and weed is illegal under Federal law in th US.

by bergie 14y ago

bergie 14y ago

C-base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base) and co-up (http://co-up.de/ http://co-up.de/) would probably be good starting points for a visiting hacker. I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one.

hnhg 14y ago
Thanks. Would be great if anyone else has anything to add. Have been looking into this for a while and this has been very useful.
orbitahl 14y ago
>I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one. Coming from Tallinn to see Berlinale in February, I had a misfortune of not having a desk in my hotel room during my stay there. Thankfully, St. Oberholz was just around the corner. I spent most most of the days working there and met many great people from artists and art curators to programmers and entrepreneurs, and it seemed that about third of visitors came from Denmark/Sweden/Iceland and the US/Canada. As much I could gather, Oberholz was the place were tech people could work when they didn't have a office space for themselves or wanted some rest from their primary offices. The place is overcrowded most of the time so you don't have a luxury for your own private table, and more often than not, you'll have to ask for a place at someones table. They also provided almost decent wifi, which really isn't really the norm for the majority of places in Berlin. On the broader perspective, Berlin is a great city with a good vibe attached to it, and I have been thinking of moving there for a while now.
derrida 14y ago
There are also a number of other hacker-spaces and the Chaos Computer Club. There is one hacker space devoted entirely to the intersection between Textiles and Electronics. Just a warning, Berlin is not the valley. It is it's own unique and awesome thing. A huge proportion of the hacking community couldn't care less about start ups. But it is a large community, and I can't speak for everyone.
- happimess 14y ago
  Do you have any links for the other hacker spaces in Berlin? I'll be travelling there in the very near future, and will likely need a space to work while I'm there. I'll be there for a month, and don't mind paying a membership fee. I already checked out c-base, co.up, and Sankt Oberholz, linked above. They look promising, but more information can only help.
  - redbad 14y ago
    Another popular coworking café in Kreuzberg is The Nest, http://cafenest.de http://cafenest.de.

pdelgallego 14y ago

> Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. Not everywhere in the EU, I moved to Denmark almost two years ago, and I am completely sure that the Danish system was designed to keep people out of their border. Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens

masklinn 14y ago
> Simple tasks like open a bank account are a troublesome for even EU citizens Could you give some details of that?
- mseebach 14y ago
  So, there are EU regulations in place that are supposed to make money laundering harder. This raises the bar everywhere. I suppose he's not referring directly to a bank account, but to our lovely home grown credit-masking-as-debit-card "Dankort" without which you might as well not have a bank account. Since they are in fact credit cards, banks are reluctant handing these out to people they might never see again.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    I'm a foreigner with a bank account and no Dankort, and I haven't really found it a huge hassle. While it's hard to get a Dankort, it's easy to get a Visa Elektron, which most places accept without fees (unlike foreign credit/debit cards). And the only things I've found really necessary about a Danish bank account are: 1) having an account to designate as a NemKonto; and 2) being able to use the betalingsservice through netbanking, e.g. to pay my rent, utilities, and TV license fee. For smaller things, I haven't found just using cash to be problematic, even if most Danes don't pay in cash.
    - mseebach 14y ago
      Fair enough. I'm happy Electron is gaining ground. Not too many years ago, an Electron basically limited you to withdraw cash (for a fee) from other bank's ATMs and pay in a few places - not including most supermarkets.

zeemonkee 14y ago

> bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser I found this to be the case when moving to Finland; the amount of bureaucracy needed to get started as a foreigner, even one from the EU, is insane (from a British perspective). - register with tax office - register with KELA (you'd think registering as a taxpayer would be sufficent; but no) - register with the Maistratti (um...) - register with police station (hey, I've just given my address details to the tax office, KELA, and Maistratti, but let's waste another half a day in a police station in middle of nowhere, Espoo). But whatever, glad to be doing my part to support the National Bureaucrat Jobs Program.

mseebach 14y ago
Getting started as an EU foreigner in UK: - HMRC - Council tax - NI number - Local doctor - Voter registration Never mind that even doing all that, most companies still don't think you exist because you don't appear on credit checks. Granted, most of these can be done via mail (someone should really introduce the British public service to the interwebs one of these days), the bureaucracy in Berlin is hardly uniquely bad from a British perspective :)
- hnhg 14y ago
  Yeah, and getting hold of the HRMC or any of these bodies over the phone can be very difficult. Apologies for that. I once got hit by a HMRC error and it was impossible for me to reach them to correct it while they fined me. Of course, they didn't admit that it was their error and that I took too long to get back to them...
- zeemonkee 14y ago
  All good points - from a foreigner's perspective in either country. I think the key here is not web/non-web but the government in question having an intelligent, joined-up registration system. In the case of Finland, once I'd registered with the tax office my address and other details should have been registered in the system. KELA would be notified - along with all my income details - and the magistrate and police would have up-to-date records. Done, one visit to one office.

pimeys 14y ago

I moved to Berlin also from Helsinki last autumn to work in a start-up. What I should add to your list is the open-mindedness of the people: it is one of the most liberal places I've ever been. People are nice, the police won't arrest you so easily for spending a splendid day in a local park and of course the nightlife. When I visited Berkeley and New York this spring, it was really a joy to be back home.

ap22213 14y ago
Why would the police arrest you for spending a day in the park?
- pimeys 14y ago
  If you like to drink beer or smoke cigarettes in a public park, for example. Or smoke weed.
  - bane 14y ago
    so basically doing things that are against the local laws
    - pimeys 14y ago
      It's not illegal to drink beer in public places (like the subways, parks, streets) and it's also legal to smoke tobacco in many places. Weed is not legal, but it's tolerated and discriminated.
      - bane 14y ago
        Only they are not legal in NYC given the scenario described. NYC has open container laws (no open alchoholic containers in public), public smoking laws (particularly in public Parks) and weed is illegal under Federal law in th US.