4 ms·

It seems clear at this point that Covid (the latest variants in the wild, at any rate) does not cause "often debilitating effects", and so any mitigation must h

It seems clear at this point that Covid (the latest variants in the wild, at any rate) does not cause "often debilitating effects", and so any mitigation must have its costs, which are very high for any easily-transmissible respiratory illness, weighed against its benefits, which are pretty low. Remember: "there are no solutions, only tradeoffs." Otherwise, we should just plug everyone into VR pods a la The Matrix and be done with disease once and for all.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
> It seems clear at this point that Covid (the latest variants in the wild, at any rate) does not cause "often debilitating effects" “Patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) present increased risk for ischemic cardiovascular complications up to 1 year after infection.” https://www.nature.com/articles/s44161-023-00336-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s44161-023-00336-5 “Approximately 1 in 5 individuals exhibited cognitive impairment 12 or more weeks following COVID-19 diagnosis.“ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159121006516 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915912...
- arp242 3y ago
  How does this compare to other viral infections? And neither of those sound debilitating by the way.
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    From the second link: > COVID-19 is associated with clinically significant symptoms despite resolution of the acute infection (i.e., post-COVID-19 syndrome). Fatigue and cognitive impairment are amongst the most common and debilitating symptoms of post-COVID-19 syndrome.
    - Izkata 3y ago
      That's comparing to no infection and doesn't answer their question.
      - bugglebeetle 3y ago
        Your comment doesn’t make any sense because how would the absence of an infection ever arrive at a debilitating outcome and thus be a point of comparison? The parent claimed COVID doesn’t cause debilitating outcomes. I provided evidence it does, including specific use of the exact term by medical researchers. When they couldn’t refute that, they made an ambiguous appeal to other infections to distract from being wrong, trying to shift attention from their original, unsupported claim to a new claim (COVID is the same as other viruses), and demanding that I provide evidence contrary to that. But that’s separate from the truth or falsity of the original claim, and thus irrelevant.
        Izkata 3y ago
        > Your comment doesn’t make any sense because how would the absence of an infection ever arrive at a debilitating outcome and thus be a point of comparison? Base rate in the population in general, which would be a mix of various infections and not. For the no-infection part: those particular ones, for example, could be caused by aging. > When they couldn’t refute that, they made an ambiguous appeal to other infections to distract from being wrong Those were two different people.
        bugglebeetle 3y ago
        This is controlled for by the NOS ranking of the studies in the meta analysis, but since you didn’t actually read it and are arguing from your priors, I guess you wouldn’t have observed that.
        Izkata 3y ago
        Yeah, I responded to what you quoted, which isn't comparing to other viruses. Which is why I said it doesn't answer their question.
  - sp332 3y ago
    If it isn't different, that's a stronger arguement that the tradeoffs are worthwhile.
mschuster91 3y ago
> It seems clear at this point that Covid (the latest variants in the wild, at any rate) does not cause "often debilitating effects" Depending on the study, you have up to 45% of people experiencing covid symptoms (aka Long Covid) almost four months past infection, and around 10% that experience symptoms 18 months past infection [1]. The amount of people so massively impacted by Long Covid that they can't work any more or have to significantly reduce their labor hours is so large that it's been theorized to be a significant contributor to current labor shortages [2]. So yes, it does classify as "often" IMHO. > and so any mitigation must have its costs, which are very high for any easily-transmissible respiratory illness, weighed against its benefits, which are pretty low. Just the 2023/24 covid+rsv+influenza wave is suspected to have cost the German economy alone 36 billion euros in lost income and sick day payments [3]. We need pathogen mitigation concepts, the sooner the better. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43661-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43661-w [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-long-covid-worsening-the-labor-shortage/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-long-covid-worsening-t... [3] https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/ifw-grippewelle-koennte-die-deutsche-volkswirtschaft-bis-zu-36-milliarden-euro-kosten-100.html´ https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/ifw-grippewelle-koennte-die-d...
rain_iwakura 3y ago
i think applying software engineering logic to diseases is fallacious. anyway, the reason you can say that is because there is basically no one left who doesn't have some sort of immunity against the virus. no immunologically naive people means better outcomes.

bugglebeetle 3y ago

> It seems clear at this point that Covid (the latest variants in the wild, at any rate) does not cause "often debilitating effects" “Patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) present increased risk for ischemic cardiovascular complications up to 1 year after infection.” https://www.nature.com/articles/s44161-023-00336-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s44161-023-00336-5 “Approximately 1 in 5 individuals exhibited cognitive impairment 12 or more weeks following COVID-19 diagnosis.“ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159121006516 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915912...

arp242 3y ago
How does this compare to other viral infections? And neither of those sound debilitating by the way.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  From the second link: > COVID-19 is associated with clinically significant symptoms despite resolution of the acute infection (i.e., post-COVID-19 syndrome). Fatigue and cognitive impairment are amongst the most common and debilitating symptoms of post-COVID-19 syndrome.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    That's comparing to no infection and doesn't answer their question.
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      Your comment doesn’t make any sense because how would the absence of an infection ever arrive at a debilitating outcome and thus be a point of comparison? The parent claimed COVID doesn’t cause debilitating outcomes. I provided evidence it does, including specific use of the exact term by medical researchers. When they couldn’t refute that, they made an ambiguous appeal to other infections to distract from being wrong, trying to shift attention from their original, unsupported claim to a new claim (COVID is the same as other viruses), and demanding that I provide evidence contrary to that. But that’s separate from the truth or falsity of the original claim, and thus irrelevant.
      - Izkata 3y ago
        > Your comment doesn’t make any sense because how would the absence of an infection ever arrive at a debilitating outcome and thus be a point of comparison? Base rate in the population in general, which would be a mix of various infections and not. For the no-infection part: those particular ones, for example, could be caused by aging. > When they couldn’t refute that, they made an ambiguous appeal to other infections to distract from being wrong Those were two different people.
        bugglebeetle 3y ago
        This is controlled for by the NOS ranking of the studies in the meta analysis, but since you didn’t actually read it and are arguing from your priors, I guess you wouldn’t have observed that.
        Izkata 3y ago
        Yeah, I responded to what you quoted, which isn't comparing to other viruses. Which is why I said it doesn't answer their question.
- sp332 3y ago
  If it isn't different, that's a stronger arguement that the tradeoffs are worthwhile.

mschuster91 3y ago

> It seems clear at this point that Covid (the latest variants in the wild, at any rate) does not cause "often debilitating effects" Depending on the study, you have up to 45% of people experiencing covid symptoms (aka Long Covid) almost four months past infection, and around 10% that experience symptoms 18 months past infection [1]. The amount of people so massively impacted by Long Covid that they can't work any more or have to significantly reduce their labor hours is so large that it's been theorized to be a significant contributor to current labor shortages [2]. So yes, it does classify as "often" IMHO. > and so any mitigation must have its costs, which are very high for any easily-transmissible respiratory illness, weighed against its benefits, which are pretty low. Just the 2023/24 covid+rsv+influenza wave is suspected to have cost the German economy alone 36 billion euros in lost income and sick day payments [3]. We need pathogen mitigation concepts, the sooner the better. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43661-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43661-w [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-long-covid-worsening-the-labor-shortage/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-long-covid-worsening-t... [3] https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/ifw-grippewelle-koennte-die-deutsche-volkswirtschaft-bis-zu-36-milliarden-euro-kosten-100.html´ https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/ifw-grippewelle-koennte-die-d...

rain_iwakura 3y ago

i think applying software engineering logic to diseases is fallacious. anyway, the reason you can say that is because there is basically no one left who doesn't have some sort of immunity against the virus. no immunologically naive people means better outcomes.