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Thank you. So you and I are aligned that ETH is insanely advanced and if tomorrow the world had to choose a "base crypto with Layer 2 on top" to replace credit

Thank you. So you and I are aligned that ETH is insanely advanced and if tomorrow the world had to choose a "base crypto with Layer 2 on top" to replace credit cards (or whatever the proposed purpose of crypto will be over the next 5-10 years if it doesn't fade away to oblivion), it would be ETH instead of BTC by a country mile, right? What do you see as cryptos use case being? For example, right now it (stablecoins) helps people (Russia, who is out of Swift) transfer money to US. Isn't that "illegal"? It's #1 function is illegal at the moment, is it not? Next to speculative core of value.

monero-xmr 3y ago
If you treat the entire global economic system as made up of "legal" and "illegal" transactions, then the current traditional financial system supports trillion of dollars in illegal economic activity. Drugs were bought with fiat and drug lords ran cartels and narco states before cryptocurrency existed. Cryptocurrency did not invent adverse social behavior and antisocial economic activity. However, there is a plausible argument that ransomware has exploded in popularity because of crypto, but a counter-argument is that these software flaws were always being exploited by nation state actors, and only the financial incentive of ransomware has finally forced companies to patch and secure their systems, which is short-term pain but long-term benefit to society. Cryptocurrency is a neutral technology. It is software-based finance. While the system has advanced by insane amounts since bitcoin was created, it still has at least another decade to go IMO before we start seeing real traction with institutions currently served adequately by the existing tradfi rails. The original people who used crypto were those not served by the existing financial system, and were willing to learn complex topics to use it. These were drug dealers / users and diehard libertarians who despised central banks and fiat currencies. Mixed within it were the experimenters who just wanted to have fun. Create lotteries, ponzis, strange games of economic incentives, memecoins, and ancillary nonsense. 15 years into crypto, there are actually, truly, real people using crypto to conduct daily legitimate finance. These are people trying to flourish in economic disasters, such as Lebanon, Argentina, Venezuela, Egypt, and Turkey. Check out a neat episode of this podcast: https://saifedean.com/podcast/23-bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-thomas-semaan https://saifedean.com/podcast/23-bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-tho... Their situation is so fucked that crypto is now easy enough, and beneficial enough, where real business between firms, vendors, and consumers is conducted over crypto rails, though it is usually in stablecoins like USDT and USDC. The next major thing I would keep an eye on is "RWAs" or "real world assets". Many types of tradfi financial instruments will be issued experimentally this cycle on crypto rails. Finally, while I think Ethereum is the best blockchain because it has the most serious developer community and the largest ecosystem of battle-hardened libraries and projects, there is always room for more. We don't need a monopoly financial system to replace the old monopoly financial system. Let a thousand flowers bloom and we will see what is the best in a competitive market.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago
  > Cryptocurrency is a neutral technology. It is software-based finance. While the system has advanced by insane amounts since bitcoin was created, it still has at least another decade to go IMO before we start seeing real traction with institutions currently served adequately by the existing tradfi rails Does any part of you wonder "why would large governments/credit card processing companies/banks sit back and let consumers create an alternative currency that cuts us out of the loop"?
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    As Hayek said: > "Credits and credit cards are substitutes. So I think we can forget about existing money and existing banks. And open a system of accounts which would displace money … I don’t believe that we shall ever have good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of the government. We can’t take them violently out of the hands of the government, [then] all we can do is by some sly, roundabout way [and] introduce something they can’t stop." https://news.bitcoin.com/fa-hayeks-foresight-imagining-bitcoins-unstoppable-rise-through-a-sly-roundabout-way/ https://news.bitcoin.com/fa-hayeks-foresight-imagining-bitco... The relatively gradual development of crypto, with the booms and busts and "told you so's" by tut-tutting academics and People Who Know More, let crypto slip through the gauntlet. I don't believe there is any danger of outright bans anymore given the legal and political successes, most obviously the Bitcoin ETF launch that put crypto into the hands of a much wider set of retail and institutions. The technology will have to develop more to truly compete, but I believe most of finance will transition to crypto rails over the coming 20 years.
    - MuffinFlavored 3y ago
      > The technology will have to develop more to truly compete, but I believe most of finance will transition to crypto rails over the coming 20 years. Why, from the perspective of we "just got done" recently making banking + Apple Pay + Stripe + all those sorts of things "really good" Why would we transition away from 'what currently works' for something that will be about the same/equal/maybe slightly worse? In what way would a crypto transition for actual finance be better than what we have today? It depends on who/what you ask. When I think crypto finance I think of: * will every transaction be publicly traceable? Who is this good/bad for? We don't currently have that today. * will governments really be ok sitting by the wayside + not getting involved and letting their currency take a back seat? Aren't there talks of governments getting into crypto themselves in "stablecoins"? Will it just be another extra layer in the soup/sea of finance processing where it's a wrapper around/from fiat?
panarky 3y ago
> replace credit cards Small payments for coffee and groceries is a solved problem. We don't need to continue re-solving this problem. Maybe we should think bigger. What problems cannot be solved by instant, inexpensive, reversible, censorable, centralized databases operated by corporations and governments that you have to trust? What problems are so big and so vital that only a slow, expensive, government-free, corporation-free, uncensorable, decentralized and trustless source of immutable truth can solve? And before you reflexively answer with "crime", consider whether every activity a corrupt or authoritarian government defines as "crime" is something that truly free people should not be permitted to do.

monero-xmr 3y ago

If you treat the entire global economic system as made up of "legal" and "illegal" transactions, then the current traditional financial system supports trillion of dollars in illegal economic activity. Drugs were bought with fiat and drug lords ran cartels and narco states before cryptocurrency existed. Cryptocurrency did not invent adverse social behavior and antisocial economic activity. However, there is a plausible argument that ransomware has exploded in popularity because of crypto, but a counter-argument is that these software flaws were always being exploited by nation state actors, and only the financial incentive of ransomware has finally forced companies to patch and secure their systems, which is short-term pain but long-term benefit to society. Cryptocurrency is a neutral technology. It is software-based finance. While the system has advanced by insane amounts since bitcoin was created, it still has at least another decade to go IMO before we start seeing real traction with institutions currently served adequately by the existing tradfi rails. The original people who used crypto were those not served by the existing financial system, and were willing to learn complex topics to use it. These were drug dealers / users and diehard libertarians who despised central banks and fiat currencies. Mixed within it were the experimenters who just wanted to have fun. Create lotteries, ponzis, strange games of economic incentives, memecoins, and ancillary nonsense. 15 years into crypto, there are actually, truly, real people using crypto to conduct daily legitimate finance. These are people trying to flourish in economic disasters, such as Lebanon, Argentina, Venezuela, Egypt, and Turkey. Check out a neat episode of this podcast: https://saifedean.com/podcast/23-bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-thomas-semaan https://saifedean.com/podcast/23-bitcoin-in-lebanon-with-tho... Their situation is so fucked that crypto is now easy enough, and beneficial enough, where real business between firms, vendors, and consumers is conducted over crypto rails, though it is usually in stablecoins like USDT and USDC. The next major thing I would keep an eye on is "RWAs" or "real world assets". Many types of tradfi financial instruments will be issued experimentally this cycle on crypto rails. Finally, while I think Ethereum is the best blockchain because it has the most serious developer community and the largest ecosystem of battle-hardened libraries and projects, there is always room for more. We don't need a monopoly financial system to replace the old monopoly financial system. Let a thousand flowers bloom and we will see what is the best in a competitive market.

MuffinFlavored 3y ago
> Cryptocurrency is a neutral technology. It is software-based finance. While the system has advanced by insane amounts since bitcoin was created, it still has at least another decade to go IMO before we start seeing real traction with institutions currently served adequately by the existing tradfi rails Does any part of you wonder "why would large governments/credit card processing companies/banks sit back and let consumers create an alternative currency that cuts us out of the loop"?
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  As Hayek said: > "Credits and credit cards are substitutes. So I think we can forget about existing money and existing banks. And open a system of accounts which would displace money … I don’t believe that we shall ever have good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of the government. We can’t take them violently out of the hands of the government, [then] all we can do is by some sly, roundabout way [and] introduce something they can’t stop." https://news.bitcoin.com/fa-hayeks-foresight-imagining-bitcoins-unstoppable-rise-through-a-sly-roundabout-way/ https://news.bitcoin.com/fa-hayeks-foresight-imagining-bitco... The relatively gradual development of crypto, with the booms and busts and "told you so's" by tut-tutting academics and People Who Know More, let crypto slip through the gauntlet. I don't believe there is any danger of outright bans anymore given the legal and political successes, most obviously the Bitcoin ETF launch that put crypto into the hands of a much wider set of retail and institutions. The technology will have to develop more to truly compete, but I believe most of finance will transition to crypto rails over the coming 20 years.
  - MuffinFlavored 3y ago
    > The technology will have to develop more to truly compete, but I believe most of finance will transition to crypto rails over the coming 20 years. Why, from the perspective of we "just got done" recently making banking + Apple Pay + Stripe + all those sorts of things "really good" Why would we transition away from 'what currently works' for something that will be about the same/equal/maybe slightly worse? In what way would a crypto transition for actual finance be better than what we have today? It depends on who/what you ask. When I think crypto finance I think of: * will every transaction be publicly traceable? Who is this good/bad for? We don't currently have that today. * will governments really be ok sitting by the wayside + not getting involved and letting their currency take a back seat? Aren't there talks of governments getting into crypto themselves in "stablecoins"? Will it just be another extra layer in the soup/sea of finance processing where it's a wrapper around/from fiat?

panarky 3y ago

> replace credit cards Small payments for coffee and groceries is a solved problem. We don't need to continue re-solving this problem. Maybe we should think bigger. What problems cannot be solved by instant, inexpensive, reversible, censorable, centralized databases operated by corporations and governments that you have to trust? What problems are so big and so vital that only a slow, expensive, government-free, corporation-free, uncensorable, decentralized and trustless source of immutable truth can solve? And before you reflexively answer with "crime", consider whether every activity a corrupt or authoritarian government defines as "crime" is something that truly free people should not be permitted to do.