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Paris & Berlin – The tale of two cities (Part 1: The facts you can’t ignore)
- tomdtpink 14y agoDEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU DEAT NOOBS HN CENSORSHIPS YOU
- tomdtpink 14y agoJOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS. JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.JOIN ME OR HAVE PIPE DREAMS.
- gulbrandr 14y agointeresting: http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tomdtpink http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tomdtpink
- Robin_Message 14y agoHijacked? Been around a long time to start trolling now.
- bad_user 14y agoThe last sane comment was made 589 days ago. The account was probably hijacked.
- bergie 14y agoI moved to Berlin from Helsinki (another regional start-up hub) last March: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/hacker-nomadism/ There are several things that I've been positively surprised about: * Cost of living is really cheap. Now when I travel to France or Finland I feel everything is expensive there * Berlin is very well connected with rest of Europe (trains, flights) * The hacker scene here is great (huge meetups, etc) On the slightly negative side: * bureaucracy is ten years behind Finland. You still need to visit an office to get anything done instead of doing things over the browser * Rental agencies really try to fleece you Since moving inside Europe is really simple, I'd urge anybody curious to take a shot and stay here for a while. For example a month in some co-working space.
- bergie 14y agoC-base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-base) and co-up (http://co-up.de/ http://co-up.de/) would probably be good starting points for a visiting hacker. I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one.
- hnhg 14y agoThanks. Would be great if anyone else has anything to add. Have been looking into this for a while and this has been very useful.
- orbitahl 14y ago>I've also heard a lot of start-up people hang out in Sankt Oberholz (http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en http://www.sanktoberholz.de/?lang=en), but I have no personal experience on that one. Coming from Tallinn to see Berlinale in February, I had a misfortune of not having a desk in my hotel room during my stay there. Thankfully, St. Oberholz was just around the corner. I spent most most of the days working there and met many great people from artists and art curators to programmers and entrepreneurs, and it seemed that about third of visitors came from Denmark/Sweden/Iceland and the US/Canada. As much I could gather, Oberholz was the place were tech people could work when they didn't have a office space for themselves or wanted some rest from their primary offices. The place is overcrowded most of the time so you don't have a luxury for your own private table, and more often than not, you'll have to ask for a place at someones table. They also provided almost decent wifi, which really isn't really the norm for the majority of places in Berlin. On the broader perspective, Berlin is a great city with a good vibe attached to it, and I have been thinking of moving there for a while now.
- juliendsv-mbm 14y agoGreat article, can't wait to read the part 2, to know if i should move or not from Paris to Berlin !
- akg 14y agoI'm not sure about Berlin, but I am visiting Paris for a few months and I found that it is just riddled with bureaucracy. For example, there was an article recently about why there are so many 49-employee people companies in France: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3953145 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3953145 I would imagine things like this get in the way of actually developing product and providing value to your customers.
- manuelflara 14y agoI'm sure Berlin is not very different to Paris in this regard, but being from Barcelona, Spain; my main concern regarding Berlin is the weather. I guess you can't have everything.
- drats 14y agoEven Parisians often flee Paris because of red tape and taxes, so if you add a foreign accent, or poor to no French, into the mix you are likely going to be going at a snail's pace. Berlin is cheaper, friendlier to business, friendlier to English and just friendlier in general on the street. The cheapness translates as a factor for employees (their home), and the international orientation of the city allows you to draw on a much broader potential labour force as tons more people from around Europe would consider a move to Berlin than to Paris. I'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris beats Berlin for anything business related, so unless you have a product specific to the French market or have a significant other in Paris who can't move it's Berlin every time. Even if you have a product specific to the French market it's probably be best to be outside France unless you need to be there in person to stroke the egos of bureaucrats who might regulate you out of existence.
- fharper1961 14y agoIn light of the significant advantages of Berlin are you going to be leaving Paris?
- Kototama 14y agoI'd be fairly surprised if there was even a single metric on which Paris beats Berlin for anything business related Like Paris having the biggest business center in Europe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense
- nhebb 14y agoThat's an interesting read. I'd never heard of La Défense before, but the wiki page makes me wonder whether it's the largest business center in Europe because of some set of favorables or if it is because there are so many historic areas in Paris that businesses are relegated to that area.
- RudeBaguette 14y agoLa Defense is, and has been in the past, home to some of the largest European companies. In fashion, you have L'Oreal, LVMH (the company that owns Louis Vutton, among other notables), as well as some of France's more classic tech companies: Bull, SFR, Orange, Capgemini, etc.
- michaelfeathers 14y agoOdd that the article completely sidesteps bureaucracy.
- andreasklinger 14y agoAs someone living in London i can see Berlin to become the seedstage city of Europe fairly quickly. This might result into becoming the startup hub #1 on the long run. But for now London holds the crown with an better uplink to the US and in general to international media and investors. Your thoughts on this? Could berlin be the Seedstage City of Europe ? Basically the Garage of this continent.
- pistoriusp 14y agoI was in Berlin in December, with my fiance, to check it out as I was considering it as a potential place to work for a few a year or two. It didn't resonate with me. But everyone has their own experiences. Below are some of the good and bad from my experiences: 1. Transportation is amazing. Not having a car is a non-issue. The most I waited for a train was 10 minutes. Drinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations. Personal freedom often trumped collective consciousness. 2. Rent is cheap. But I found the city rather ugly. When I asked a resident why they have so much "bad graffiti" she commented that it was to make it ugly. Further questioning and reasoning was that ugly correlates to cheaper rent. 3. So much dog shit. Perhaps because there are a lot of dogs. They are very well behaved. But the poo was everywhere. 4. We stayed in Kreuzburg. It's trendy. Which means that it's mostly occupied by unemployed artists. :P 5. I speak very poor German, but Berliners are incredibly friendly and mostly patient. 6. It doesn't really feel like a big city. 7. They had some nice galleries and museums. Architecturally I don't think I saw anything significant, or that sticks out in my mind.
- pimeys 14y agoI really enjoy the graffiti in Berlin. It's because I've done so many underground rave parties and I'm fond of old factories, warehouses etc. If you don't like that, I would then prefer Paris over Berlin.
- redbad 14y agoDrinking and smoking are allowed in the underground stations. Drinking is, but only beer (I think some max ABV%). Smoking is not allowed, though it doesn't stop some people, I guess.
- zalew 14y agoI smoked once on the S-bahn station (wouldn't imagine it can be allowed on U-bahn), and the security politely informed me with a smile that it's not allowed. In my homecountry I'm not used to any form of security being polite. Not only beer, you forgot gluhwein :)
- Tomis02 14y ago
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- domodomo 14y agoWhat is the VC culture like in Berlin? Are there many VCs, and what kind of companies do they typically invest in? To me, this is the difference between a good town for bootstrapping and a good town for creating a startup. As it stands, this article seems more like an argument for why Berlin is a great place to bootstrap a company. Which is also great, but different.
- iuguy 14y agoThis isn't a very well written article. Comparing Berlin to Paris isn't a fair comparison. Paris for example, is subject to some of the most startup-hostile laws in the EU. The adage of hire slowly and fire quickly just doesn't work there, yet somehow this doesn't make the article. It seems like the crux of the article is based on Berlin being cheaper than Paris. Well, to be honest most of Europe is cheaper than most of central Paris. You could just as easily claim that Athens is cheaper than Paris, but I hardly see Athens as a startup hub for years to come. The point about Berlin's geographical location given the ease of transport within the EU for EU member state citizens is laughable. What about the talent in Germany? There are some great universities in Germany that are overlooked in favour of what? Poland? If one of Berlin's best points is it's proximity to Poland, then Berlin is in serious trouble as a startup hub. I imagine that a lot of (but not all) Poles might not see Germany as a natural startup destination anymore than Russia. Besides, there's a heck of a lot of smart Polish people who work all around the world as well as shock in Poland. Is Berlin better than Paris to launch a startup? Almost certainly. Almost anywhere outside of France is better than France to launch a startup right now (considering the red tape, taxis and uncertainty under Hollande) but it has a long way to go to displace London and for Germany the UK in general. In conclusion, in the EU if you want cheap, go to Bucharest. If you want good, go to London.