4 ms·

I think everyone agrees that certain cultures deserve to be eradicated, not in the sense of killing everyone who practices that culture (of course the Spanish d

I think everyone agrees that certain cultures deserve to be eradicated, not in the sense of killing everyone who practices that culture (of course the Spanish didn’t exterminate the Mexica either) but in the sense of converting or reprogramming them into a different culture. This is what was done to Germany and Japan after the Second World War for instance. Literal human sacrifice is a sufficient but not necessary condition. Though I suppose in a broader and more metaphorical sense, Germany and Japan also practiced human sacrifice.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
> I think everyone agrees that certain cultures deserve to be eradicated I can assure you that's far from the case.
- philwelch 3y ago
  No, when it really comes down to it, it isn't the case, aside from a few fringe pacifists. Some cultures, like the Germans and Japanese, engaged in repeated aggressive military expansion until the rest of the world was forced to conquer them and reprogram them into pacifists. Other cultures engage in practices that are outside of what even tolerant liberals are willing to tolerate, like female genital mutilation or not letting girls go to school or not tolerating homosexual behavior or having traditional gender roles, and so we use human rights NGO's and Western mass media to attempt to assimilate them into our culture. If you look at what the Spanish actually did to the Aztec Empire, they basically organized a coalition of other indigenous tribes who were tired of living under Mexica domination (and having their people intermittently sacrificed), overthrew the Mexica, and installed themselves as the new suzerain. This isn't far off from what the Western countries were trying to do during the Arab Spring or Syrian Civil War, except the Western countries tried to either install a local client or pushed for elections, and neither of those plans tended to work out for the countries involved.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    I understand there are extreme cases like the Nazis. I'll say something about that below. But I'm not sure we can group the Aztecs in with them, certainly not to the point that so much of their culture was destroyed as it was. Also worth nothing they weren't sailing around the world conquering peoples. Yes, maybe they were doing it at home, but Spanish culture is the one that survives, even though they also behaved abbhorently. And I love Spanish culture even though they did. I wish Ï could enjoy Aztec culture in a similar way. I disagree that Japan and Germany had their cultures eradicated. Both nations maintain rich cultural traditions and express them within the safe bounds of their nation states. What happend in meso-America was much closer to the kind of eradication of cultures the Nazis wanted to see, which was the reason they are so reviled. And just to say I don't think it's fair to say pacifism is a fringe idea. Many of our world's states are officially pacifistic, many of our greatest philosophers have subscribed to it and there have been mass movements for peace which in some cases have resulted in decolonisation or have bolstered democratic opposition in war time.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      > But I'm not sure we can group the Aztecs in with them, certainly not to the point that so much of their culture was destroyed as it was. Also worth nothing they weren't sailing around the world conquering peoples. The Aztec empire was only about a hundred years old when it fell. They were very active conquerors on top of committing human sacrifice. > I disagree that Japan and Germany had their cultures eradicated. Both nations maintain rich cultural traditions and express them within the safe bounds of their nation states. What happend in meso-America was much closer to the kind of eradication of cultures the Nazis wanted to see, which was the reason they are so reviled. Seven million Mexicans today are fluent in indigenous languages while between 11-23 million identify or are identified as indigenous, so clearly their cultures weren’t eradicated in the same way that the Nazis sought eradication. It’s all a matter of degree. For what it’s worth I agree that these things should be carefully targeted only at the most dangerous and problematic aspects of a culture, but of course, how else are we going to decide which aspects of a foreign culture are “problematic” except by comparison to our own cultural values? Also, cultural assimilation is never quite so targeted. How many countries can you name whose leaders don’t wear Western suits and ties or where nobody plays soccer or where you can’t find a McDonalds? (And before you say Russia, they basically transformed all of their McDonalds into a knockoff Russian brand that is still basically McDonalds). > And just to say I don't think it's fair to say pacifism is a fringe idea. Many of our world's states are officially pacifistic… There’s probably a single digit number of countries that don’t have a military, and one of them (Iceland) is nonetheless a NATO member with foreign security guarantees so I wouldn’t even count them as pacifist.
  - lukan 3y ago
    "like female genital mutilation" What about male genital mutilation? And in general no, like the other commentor said, the german or japanese culture was not eradicated. Just forced to stop their imperialistic aggression. And the spanish christians you are defending here, did destroy all the other cultures they conquered down to their root and language. Making them slaves. Taking everything of value. Installing a racist regime, with white people on top. Whatever the atztecs did, the spanish did not do better. If they would have been motivated by freeing the people from the aztecs, then they just could have done so. But maybe that was not what the were after, but rather the gold and power?
    - philwelch 3y ago
      Seven million Mexicans today fluently speak an indigenous language, significantly more than in the United States. And you’re kidding yourself if you think the United States hasn’t also gotten a lot of money and power out of maintaining friendly regimes in Europe and East Asia.
      - lukan 3y ago
        Yes, they were apparently not succesful. But as late as in the 20. century christian schools in south america largely forbid the use of native language.

AlecSchueler 3y ago

> I think everyone agrees that certain cultures deserve to be eradicated I can assure you that's far from the case.

philwelch 3y ago
No, when it really comes down to it, it isn't the case, aside from a few fringe pacifists. Some cultures, like the Germans and Japanese, engaged in repeated aggressive military expansion until the rest of the world was forced to conquer them and reprogram them into pacifists. Other cultures engage in practices that are outside of what even tolerant liberals are willing to tolerate, like female genital mutilation or not letting girls go to school or not tolerating homosexual behavior or having traditional gender roles, and so we use human rights NGO's and Western mass media to attempt to assimilate them into our culture. If you look at what the Spanish actually did to the Aztec Empire, they basically organized a coalition of other indigenous tribes who were tired of living under Mexica domination (and having their people intermittently sacrificed), overthrew the Mexica, and installed themselves as the new suzerain. This isn't far off from what the Western countries were trying to do during the Arab Spring or Syrian Civil War, except the Western countries tried to either install a local client or pushed for elections, and neither of those plans tended to work out for the countries involved.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  I understand there are extreme cases like the Nazis. I'll say something about that below. But I'm not sure we can group the Aztecs in with them, certainly not to the point that so much of their culture was destroyed as it was. Also worth nothing they weren't sailing around the world conquering peoples. Yes, maybe they were doing it at home, but Spanish culture is the one that survives, even though they also behaved abbhorently. And I love Spanish culture even though they did. I wish Ï could enjoy Aztec culture in a similar way. I disagree that Japan and Germany had their cultures eradicated. Both nations maintain rich cultural traditions and express them within the safe bounds of their nation states. What happend in meso-America was much closer to the kind of eradication of cultures the Nazis wanted to see, which was the reason they are so reviled. And just to say I don't think it's fair to say pacifism is a fringe idea. Many of our world's states are officially pacifistic, many of our greatest philosophers have subscribed to it and there have been mass movements for peace which in some cases have resulted in decolonisation or have bolstered democratic opposition in war time.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > But I'm not sure we can group the Aztecs in with them, certainly not to the point that so much of their culture was destroyed as it was. Also worth nothing they weren't sailing around the world conquering peoples. The Aztec empire was only about a hundred years old when it fell. They were very active conquerors on top of committing human sacrifice. > I disagree that Japan and Germany had their cultures eradicated. Both nations maintain rich cultural traditions and express them within the safe bounds of their nation states. What happend in meso-America was much closer to the kind of eradication of cultures the Nazis wanted to see, which was the reason they are so reviled. Seven million Mexicans today are fluent in indigenous languages while between 11-23 million identify or are identified as indigenous, so clearly their cultures weren’t eradicated in the same way that the Nazis sought eradication. It’s all a matter of degree. For what it’s worth I agree that these things should be carefully targeted only at the most dangerous and problematic aspects of a culture, but of course, how else are we going to decide which aspects of a foreign culture are “problematic” except by comparison to our own cultural values? Also, cultural assimilation is never quite so targeted. How many countries can you name whose leaders don’t wear Western suits and ties or where nobody plays soccer or where you can’t find a McDonalds? (And before you say Russia, they basically transformed all of their McDonalds into a knockoff Russian brand that is still basically McDonalds). > And just to say I don't think it's fair to say pacifism is a fringe idea. Many of our world's states are officially pacifistic… There’s probably a single digit number of countries that don’t have a military, and one of them (Iceland) is nonetheless a NATO member with foreign security guarantees so I wouldn’t even count them as pacifist.
- lukan 3y ago
  "like female genital mutilation" What about male genital mutilation? And in general no, like the other commentor said, the german or japanese culture was not eradicated. Just forced to stop their imperialistic aggression. And the spanish christians you are defending here, did destroy all the other cultures they conquered down to their root and language. Making them slaves. Taking everything of value. Installing a racist regime, with white people on top. Whatever the atztecs did, the spanish did not do better. If they would have been motivated by freeing the people from the aztecs, then they just could have done so. But maybe that was not what the were after, but rather the gold and power?
  - philwelch 3y ago
    Seven million Mexicans today fluently speak an indigenous language, significantly more than in the United States. And you’re kidding yourself if you think the United States hasn’t also gotten a lot of money and power out of maintaining friendly regimes in Europe and East Asia.
    - lukan 3y ago
      Yes, they were apparently not succesful. But as late as in the 20. century christian schools in south america largely forbid the use of native language.