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I always feel like these sorts of sentiments are a bit reductive. Citizens benefit a lot from not being on the losing side of a war.

vegabook 3y ago
They benefit even more by not serially starting wars all over the world in the first place.
- fabian2k 3y ago
  Which wars did Europe start recently?
  - irfwashere 3y ago
    Libya and Afghanistan?
mistrial9 3y ago
do not discount the addictive qualities of endless budget. The same motivations are replayed again and again, with train loads of money attached, without ceasing over years. But the markets today have evolved -- budgets are used to purchase goods and services from companies.. that benefits the government that pays them, the immediate employees, and sometimes the general public. There has never been a time with so many people, and so few wars, relatively speaking. Why increase budgets? Why operate at an increasing loss each year waiting for giant monetary rescue? The reasons are as old as human failing, and as obvious as poor systems design, sometimes. Its a thousand roller coasters running without synchronizing, it seems.
- bawolff 3y ago
  I'm not saying that every single dollar spent on defense is a dollar well spent. There are tons of priorities that governments have to chose between. All i'm saying is that citizens of a particular country do get some benefits out of appropriate defense spending, depending on the geopolitical situation.
smurfbox 3y ago
Here's a suggestion for Europe. Keep your promises. Since the Berlin wall fell the west promised to not move their positions beyond it. They did so anyway and went all the way to the point of inviting Ukraine to join. Fast forward to Minsk accords the Germans and French admitted they were never going to abide by those terms. So the Russians have nobody in Europe that they can even deal with, since they never keep their promises. Hollande and Merkel both admitted this publicly. My suggestiom would be to demilitarize NATO and create a new security architecture that states if you come one step westbound we will nuke you (Russians). That will be enough to appease both sides and you'll save boatloads of money from being pilfered by the west's military industrial complex. I hate that the Ukrainians have been used as pawns in a western gambit when they could have had literally the best of both worlds. Low energy prices from the east and European culture and influences from the west. But now because of the petulant children in power in Europe they can't have any semblance of a society anymore.
- fabian2k 3y ago
  Russia invaded a sovereign country. They are the aggressors here, period. NATO didn't cause this war, Russia alone did that.
  - irfwashere 3y ago
    Clearly you are ignoring the history of the conflict and the desires of the Russians, and thereby the entire reason for the invasion. It was explained clearly many times prior to the invasion that they would go ahead and do so if you ignore their security concerns. Remember when they put missiles in Cuba? We can't ignore their security concerns and pretend facts exist in a vacuum.
    - fabian2k 3y ago
      You are justifying an illegal war of aggression here. Claiming some nebulous security concerns does not justify invading a sovereign nation. Ukraine did express their desire to join NATO, that is their right as a sovereign nation. Russia does not have a right to control what their neighbours do. Your argument is denying Ukrainian Sovereignty. Nuclear weapons are a special case, which is why we have treaties today that limit certain types of them. Cuba is not a comparable case here at all.

vegabook 3y ago

They benefit even more by not serially starting wars all over the world in the first place.

fabian2k 3y ago
Which wars did Europe start recently?
- irfwashere 3y ago
  Libya and Afghanistan?

mistrial9 3y ago

do not discount the addictive qualities of endless budget. The same motivations are replayed again and again, with train loads of money attached, without ceasing over years. But the markets today have evolved -- budgets are used to purchase goods and services from companies.. that benefits the government that pays them, the immediate employees, and sometimes the general public. There has never been a time with so many people, and so few wars, relatively speaking. Why increase budgets? Why operate at an increasing loss each year waiting for giant monetary rescue? The reasons are as old as human failing, and as obvious as poor systems design, sometimes. Its a thousand roller coasters running without synchronizing, it seems.

bawolff 3y ago
I'm not saying that every single dollar spent on defense is a dollar well spent. There are tons of priorities that governments have to chose between. All i'm saying is that citizens of a particular country do get some benefits out of appropriate defense spending, depending on the geopolitical situation.

smurfbox 3y ago

Here's a suggestion for Europe. Keep your promises. Since the Berlin wall fell the west promised to not move their positions beyond it. They did so anyway and went all the way to the point of inviting Ukraine to join. Fast forward to Minsk accords the Germans and French admitted they were never going to abide by those terms. So the Russians have nobody in Europe that they can even deal with, since they never keep their promises. Hollande and Merkel both admitted this publicly. My suggestiom would be to demilitarize NATO and create a new security architecture that states if you come one step westbound we will nuke you (Russians). That will be enough to appease both sides and you'll save boatloads of money from being pilfered by the west's military industrial complex. I hate that the Ukrainians have been used as pawns in a western gambit when they could have had literally the best of both worlds. Low energy prices from the east and European culture and influences from the west. But now because of the petulant children in power in Europe they can't have any semblance of a society anymore.

fabian2k 3y ago
Russia invaded a sovereign country. They are the aggressors here, period. NATO didn't cause this war, Russia alone did that.
- irfwashere 3y ago
  Clearly you are ignoring the history of the conflict and the desires of the Russians, and thereby the entire reason for the invasion. It was explained clearly many times prior to the invasion that they would go ahead and do so if you ignore their security concerns. Remember when they put missiles in Cuba? We can't ignore their security concerns and pretend facts exist in a vacuum.
  - fabian2k 3y ago
    You are justifying an illegal war of aggression here. Claiming some nebulous security concerns does not justify invading a sovereign nation. Ukraine did express their desire to join NATO, that is their right as a sovereign nation. Russia does not have a right to control what their neighbours do. Your argument is denying Ukrainian Sovereignty. Nuclear weapons are a special case, which is why we have treaties today that limit certain types of them. Cuba is not a comparable case here at all.