7 ms·

// Yeah, because that was their literature, history, science, philosophy Perhaps having seen the Aztec human sacrifice, of children, the Europeans weren’t too

// Yeah, because that was their literature, history, science, philosophy Perhaps having seen the Aztec human sacrifice, of children, the Europeans weren’t too keen to maintain these things.

lukan 3y ago
Have you heard of the spanish inquisition? Or the general treatment of the pagans? I do not think what we now call human rights mattered to them in any way. It was a different and therefore enemy religion. It was beaten and then destroyed. That was the main thing. That they also happened to sacrifice humans was maybe a moral bonus to justify it, but destroying the cultural foundation of the culture you want to conquer was quite standard and old practice. Ask the druids for example. Once a culture lost its foundation, it becomes way easier to control. Also it is a proof, "see, your gods did nothing to protect you, they are powerless, like you. So joining us (means working for us) is your only option"
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  > Have you heard of the spanish inquisition? Sure. As one of Neal Stephenson's characters observed, it's a measure of what utter shitheads the Aztecs were that when the Spanish Inquisition took over, things actually got more humane. To name just one issue, the Spaniards weren't cannibals. > Ask the druids for example. The druids, in turn, were such utter shitheads that the Romans (not exactly a bunch of bleeding hearts) were horrified by their cruelty.
- philwelch 3y ago
  > Ask the druids for example. Also infamous for practicing human sacrifice, but go on.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Is human sacrifice the only practice that means a culture deserves to be eradicated or are there others?
    - xyzelement 3y ago
      I do think if there’s an objective thing that can condemn a culture, it’s willingness to sacrifice its children is that thing And I do think this extrapolates to modern cultures, from slapping a suicide vest on a toddler, to “one child” policies to “children are bad for the environment” type movements.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Maybe Spanish culture should have been "condemed" long before they set sail for America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_the_ancient_Iberian_Peninsula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_the_ancient...
        philwelch 3y ago
        They were. The Iberian Celts were conquered and repressed by the Roman Empire, and the Roman culture was in turn reformed by the early Christians.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        And we lost a lot every time. I don't believe it was needed to crush the cultures of America and elsewhere because of disagreeable religious practice. The argument could be made that we should wipe out Islamic culture because of their opression of women. And it would be an abbhorent argument.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Just wanted to add that this reads like the Romans condemned the Celts for practicing sacrifice, and that the Christians did the same for the Romans. This is not true. I'm curious as well on that topic: what do we think of legal sacrifice in Rome? Should we condem their entire culture because they crucified people?
        philwelch 3y ago
  - lukan 3y ago
    A) likely, but not really confirmed to be a regular thing by my knowledge. What we know, we know mostly from the romans. B) The romans practiced ritual murder (among other things). Which is not that different to human sacrifice to me. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20726130/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20726130/ And yes, I can go on, but why? The point was not, that the druids were saints. (Btw. many of the christian "saints" were pretty bloody as well)
    - philwelch 3y ago
      > The romans practiced ritual murder (among other things). Which is not that different to human sacrifice to me. Yes, this is also how the early Christians felt, which is why they eradicated Roman paganism once they became the dominant religion within the empire.
      - lukan 3y ago
        And what was the motivation, to eradicate other christian branches, like the arians? Did they also practice human sacrifice?
        krapp 3y ago
        Theological disagreements, such as the nature of Jesus' divinity, the proper relationship between Christianity and Judaism, what even is the Trinity, etc.
        lukan 3y ago
        I know. But the person above made its point that the christians only eradicated other cultures/religions, when they were cruel and sacrificing humans. So my point was: no, obviously not.
        philwelch 3y ago
        I did not, in fact, make that point.
AlecSchueler 3y ago
Europeans were widely practicing things like public executions as well as torture. They also engaged in traditional castration and circumcision. This was also a time long still before the witch hunts began. And don't forget how many women and children they kidnapped and forced into slavery.

// Yeah, because that was their literature, history, science, philosophy Perhaps having seen the Aztec human sacrifice, of children, the Europeans weren’t too keen to maintain these things.

lukan 3y ago

Have you heard of the spanish inquisition? Or the general treatment of the pagans? I do not think what we now call human rights mattered to them in any way. It was a different and therefore enemy religion. It was beaten and then destroyed. That was the main thing. That they also happened to sacrifice humans was maybe a moral bonus to justify it, but destroying the cultural foundation of the culture you want to conquer was quite standard and old practice. Ask the druids for example. Once a culture lost its foundation, it becomes way easier to control. Also it is a proof, "see, your gods did nothing to protect you, they are powerless, like you. So joining us (means working for us) is your only option"

Turing_Machine 3y ago
> Have you heard of the spanish inquisition? Sure. As one of Neal Stephenson's characters observed, it's a measure of what utter shitheads the Aztecs were that when the Spanish Inquisition took over, things actually got more humane. To name just one issue, the Spaniards weren't cannibals. > Ask the druids for example. The druids, in turn, were such utter shitheads that the Romans (not exactly a bunch of bleeding hearts) were horrified by their cruelty.
philwelch 3y ago
> Ask the druids for example. Also infamous for practicing human sacrifice, but go on.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Is human sacrifice the only practice that means a culture deserves to be eradicated or are there others?
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    I do think if there’s an objective thing that can condemn a culture, it’s willingness to sacrifice its children is that thing And I do think this extrapolates to modern cultures, from slapping a suicide vest on a toddler, to “one child” policies to “children are bad for the environment” type movements.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      Maybe Spanish culture should have been "condemed" long before they set sail for America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_the_ancient_Iberian_Peninsula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_the_ancient...
      - philwelch 3y ago
        They were. The Iberian Celts were conquered and repressed by the Roman Empire, and the Roman culture was in turn reformed by the early Christians.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        And we lost a lot every time. I don't believe it was needed to crush the cultures of America and elsewhere because of disagreeable religious practice. The argument could be made that we should wipe out Islamic culture because of their opression of women. And it would be an abbhorent argument.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Just wanted to add that this reads like the Romans condemned the Celts for practicing sacrifice, and that the Christians did the same for the Romans. This is not true. I'm curious as well on that topic: what do we think of legal sacrifice in Rome? Should we condem their entire culture because they crucified people?
        philwelch 3y ago
- lukan 3y ago
  A) likely, but not really confirmed to be a regular thing by my knowledge. What we know, we know mostly from the romans. B) The romans practiced ritual murder (among other things). Which is not that different to human sacrifice to me. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20726130/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20726130/ And yes, I can go on, but why? The point was not, that the druids were saints. (Btw. many of the christian "saints" were pretty bloody as well)
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > The romans practiced ritual murder (among other things). Which is not that different to human sacrifice to me. Yes, this is also how the early Christians felt, which is why they eradicated Roman paganism once they became the dominant religion within the empire.
    - lukan 3y ago
      And what was the motivation, to eradicate other christian branches, like the arians? Did they also practice human sacrifice?
      - krapp 3y ago
        Theological disagreements, such as the nature of Jesus' divinity, the proper relationship between Christianity and Judaism, what even is the Trinity, etc.
        lukan 3y ago
        I know. But the person above made its point that the christians only eradicated other cultures/religions, when they were cruel and sacrificing humans. So my point was: no, obviously not.
        philwelch 3y ago
        I did not, in fact, make that point.

AlecSchueler 3y ago

Europeans were widely practicing things like public executions as well as torture. They also engaged in traditional castration and circumcision. This was also a time long still before the witch hunts began. And don't forget how many women and children they kidnapped and forced into slavery.