4 ms·

Counterpoint: As a teacher (public middle school in the US), I can tell you that today's students routinely ask to use the bathroom when they don't need to. The

by dhc02 3y ago

Counterpoint: As a teacher (public middle school in the US), I can tell you that today's students routinely ask to use the bathroom when they don't need to. They go there to use their phones, meet up with friends, or just to avoid doing work. Without some sort of structure in place (the simplest of which is "no bathroom breaks in my class, period"), a significant portion of class time is taken up by students asking to leave or asking to be let back in (the doors are required to be locked at all times in case a wild shooter appears). So something that lets kids go a couple of times a day during classes but prevents "abuse" might relieve some of the time and cognitive overhead of dealing with bathroom breaks for teachers.

bastawhiz 3y ago
This has never been a serious problem. Why is it suddenly a problem now? And before you answer, the attitudes and dispositions of the students are a symptom, not a cause.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  It was the same 10+ years ago. Doors weren't locked though. I also don't think an app is needed to tell a recurring problem student "no".
- dhc02 3y ago
  I'm not saying I think it's a good idea on balance (the onerous big brother software). I just thought I'd point out that there might be potential hidden upsides in addition to the obvious downsides.
in_cahoots 3y ago
I was a rule-following middle schooler who happened to get her first period in 6th grade. There were multiple times I had to walk around with period-stained jeans and a sweatshirt tied around my waist because I was still figuring out my cycle and certain teachers would only let you go to the bathroom in their classes once a week. Turns out my menstrual cycle doesn’t follow a bell schedule. I urge you to reconsider your policy. You’re punishing everyone because you can’t control your classroom.
- dhc02 3y ago
  If I could create my own policy in a vacuum, it would be something like "Excuse yourself quietly, get back as soon as possible so you don't miss too much, and if I have a question I'll ask you about it later." But I can't. In order to let a student leave my classroom, I am required to personally create a pass in the system, which means I have to stop teaching and bring whatever is happening to a screeching halt. I don't mean to imply that class is always more important than physical needs. I know that it isn't. But because bathroom breaks have been turned by policy into major interruptions, it really intensifies the issue. For me, it's not about controlling kids. It's about trying to maintain some semblance of order/quiet/concentration so that learning can happen. (Yes, I know that the pass policy as a whole is mostly about controlling kids.) I've only been teaching for 2 years after decades in private industry. Stuff like this is my least favorite part of the job. I have no idea how to solve it, but FYI I have never said no to a student who asked me quietly or pulled me aside. P.S. (I think that as a fellow former rule-following middle schooler, you would be blown away by how few of us there are left, by how little intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and desire to please others the median middle schooler currently seems to have, and by how badly it messes up the whole idea of productive/fun learning environments. I came into this in 2022 as a resolute idealist and have quickly been ground down into something less than that, although I still think it's maybe the most worthwhile way someone who has retired young can spend their time.)
  - thecrash 3y ago
    > as a fellow former rule-following middle schooler, you would be blown away by how few of us there are left If someone is surrounded by ubiquitous control systems designed to regiment their behavior, it can hardly be a surprise when they have difficulty with self-discipline. Using technical methods to motivate someone's behavior denies them the opportunity to develop intrinsic motivation.
hobs 3y ago
Then punish them instead of punishing everyone, communal bad rules so you can manage something isn't a good enough reason.

by dhc02 3y ago

bastawhiz 3y ago

This has never been a serious problem. Why is it suddenly a problem now? And before you answer, the attitudes and dispositions of the students are a symptom, not a cause.

xboxnolifes 3y ago
It was the same 10+ years ago. Doors weren't locked though. I also don't think an app is needed to tell a recurring problem student "no".
dhc02 3y ago
I'm not saying I think it's a good idea on balance (the onerous big brother software). I just thought I'd point out that there might be potential hidden upsides in addition to the obvious downsides.

in_cahoots 3y ago

I was a rule-following middle schooler who happened to get her first period in 6th grade. There were multiple times I had to walk around with period-stained jeans and a sweatshirt tied around my waist because I was still figuring out my cycle and certain teachers would only let you go to the bathroom in their classes once a week. Turns out my menstrual cycle doesn’t follow a bell schedule. I urge you to reconsider your policy. You’re punishing everyone because you can’t control your classroom.

dhc02 3y ago
If I could create my own policy in a vacuum, it would be something like "Excuse yourself quietly, get back as soon as possible so you don't miss too much, and if I have a question I'll ask you about it later." But I can't. In order to let a student leave my classroom, I am required to personally create a pass in the system, which means I have to stop teaching and bring whatever is happening to a screeching halt. I don't mean to imply that class is always more important than physical needs. I know that it isn't. But because bathroom breaks have been turned by policy into major interruptions, it really intensifies the issue. For me, it's not about controlling kids. It's about trying to maintain some semblance of order/quiet/concentration so that learning can happen. (Yes, I know that the pass policy as a whole is mostly about controlling kids.) I've only been teaching for 2 years after decades in private industry. Stuff like this is my least favorite part of the job. I have no idea how to solve it, but FYI I have never said no to a student who asked me quietly or pulled me aside. P.S. (I think that as a fellow former rule-following middle schooler, you would be blown away by how few of us there are left, by how little intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and desire to please others the median middle schooler currently seems to have, and by how badly it messes up the whole idea of productive/fun learning environments. I came into this in 2022 as a resolute idealist and have quickly been ground down into something less than that, although I still think it's maybe the most worthwhile way someone who has retired young can spend their time.)
- thecrash 3y ago
  > as a fellow former rule-following middle schooler, you would be blown away by how few of us there are left If someone is surrounded by ubiquitous control systems designed to regiment their behavior, it can hardly be a surprise when they have difficulty with self-discipline. Using technical methods to motivate someone's behavior denies them the opportunity to develop intrinsic motivation.

hobs 3y ago

Then punish them instead of punishing everyone, communal bad rules so you can manage something isn't a good enough reason.