7 ms·

I will NEVER add such a privacy breaking a**hole feature

106 points by ta_9390 3y ago

vehementi 3y ago
[flagged]
- Spivak 3y ago
  If you can't tell that your employees are actually doing work without one of these tools then what are you paying them for? What computer job has no externally visible sign of work being done except "looks busy?"
  - exe34 3y ago
    Middle management.
  - playingalong 3y ago
    I don't agree with it myself... ... but more often than you would hope any maintenance work is considered like this. System maintenance, codebase maintenance. Even some sorts of support too.
  - mckn1ght 3y ago
    And if people are resting and vesting, even if it’s not a pay issue, there’s definitely a culture issue in the company. You also need good examples from leadership, good recognition of good work, good ways to provide both positive and negative feedback, good roadmap planning, choose the “right” things to work on that are both intellectually challenging and provide good value for customers, have good engineering processes in place that minimize gatekeepers and pedantic bikeshedding… Not to say any of that is easy. Just that the natural consequence of getting too much of it wrong is that people just mentally check out.
    - vehementi 3y ago
      I'm on a non-tech-related Vancouver discord server, and I can name 10 people on there who work in tech and actively try to do the least they can get away with at jobs, or work multiple jobs secretly, etc. and not one of them complains about money. You can no-true-Corporationsman it if you want but there are a lot of people who are naturally actively shady like that.
      - Spivak 3y ago
        Doing the least you can at work is also called "meeting expectations." Why are you going above and beyond to create value you won't capture? If someone is willing to pay you a lot for not doing much and is happy with your output then what's the issue? People working multiple jobs is typically a sign of hard work. They could be playing Xbox instead but they chose more work. Spinning working on things that no one asked you to do to fill the free time can't be better for you or the economy than doing useful work somewhere else. Like yeah sure it's probably a violation of your employment contract or whatever but ignoring the rules is practically the west coast hacker spirit. And ethically I have no issue with it at all. You can pay for hours or output, when I meet my output goals the excess hours are mine back. Folks will unironically joke "the reward for hard work is more work," put zero additional thought into it, work hard and wake up 10 years later burnt out, getting 2% raises, with their job consuming their whole lives.
        vehementi 3y ago
        I am kinda tiring of seeing this rationalization. Don't you see, it's on the company to fire you if your productivity is low! Feel free to do nothing or as little as possible! That's such trash. If you're in software and are being honest you know we are not being paid for our output. Where are you working where the understanding is that if you get assigned a task for the week and finish it in one hour, it is common knowledge between you and your management chain that you have the rest of the week off and the CEO says "nice, see ya!"? Where your team says the same and doesn't look at you sideways? No, we aren't being paid for output, we are being paid for being as productive as we can (sustainably) for the generally accepted hours (9-5 or whatever your company says), and continually improving our skills. There is a general extreme difficulty to measure and track and enforce that (because as we all know, estimation is hard and shit happens) which is where trust comes in and why companies are so vulnerable to people working less and lying about it -- it's super difficult to verify.
  - vehementi 3y ago
    All software development? You can work at 25% pace and get away with it at most places. Sandbag, attend lots of meetings, be "blocked" by things often, etc. It's not about literally producing nothing, it's about working from 11-2 (or whatever, depends on what these people try to get away with)
INTPenis 3y ago
So is this like a remote administration tool then? Since I'm assuming you'd want to trigger the screenshot remotely from a central server that manages kimai clients.
- furyofantares 3y ago
  "Kimai is a free and open-source project time-tracker."
  - INTPenis 3y ago
    Yeah I noticed that, which is why I'm confused about this screenshot feature being invasive. Unless it's remotely managed, it would only be screenshots taken by you, and stored by you, in your time tracker.
    - furyofantares 3y ago
      Things don't need to be remotely managed for the user to lack control. The client software could take periodic screenshots during tracked time which are sent along when the user reports their tracked time.
      - INTPenis 3y ago
        That would make it centrally managed. Unless the user can override this configuration, we're talking about remote administration. Either through this tool, or through some other tool that deploys it and ensures the user cannot change it. Kudos to the developer for standing their ground, but if we're talking about a remotely managed client computer then I don't think there's much the user can do to protect their privacy.
        furyofantares 3y ago
        It sounds like adding this feature would turn the software into something you consider remotely administered.
lakpan 3y ago
The most interesting part of this tool is that it has enterprise features and it’s still free. I mean why. You’re producing a product to handle large amounts of money and you don’t want a cut?
- afavour 3y ago
  They offer a hosted version so they’re making money, even if they could earn more if they wanted.
- uoaei 3y ago
  Usually means they're getting paid in other ways.
  - soganess 3y ago
    Yeah really sounds like it ::eye roll:: https://www.kimai.org/en/about.html https://www.kimai.org/en/about.html Seems like it is just a one person project with donations and a paid SaaS tier if you don't want to role your own.
repomies69 3y ago
Maybe start corporate-friendly fork
sschueller 3y ago
He's not wrong and tracking your employees like that is actually illegal in Switzerland and probably other places as well. In fact if you install security cameras in your work place they can not be used to track employees. You are permitted to gather overall metrics over all employees but you can't track individuals. There are exceptions but only for very specific instances. If you don't trust your employees to do the work then what guarantee do you have that they do their work well? This is how you end up with door hinges meant for the front ending up installed in the rear. Zero trust means their is zero incentive for the employee to give a shit about doing their job right.
- perdjesk 3y ago
  Switzerland laws don't have an overall prohibition expressed that directly. Moreover the videosurveillance and system surveillance are treated separately even if some common laws apply. The intent of the surveillance and the communication to employees is more relevant thant the technical means. > In short, a surveillance system is prohibited if it is intended solely or primarily to monitor the actual behaviour of employees. However, the same system will not be prohibited if it is used for on legitimate reasons, such as ensuring safety or enabling the organisation or planning of work. However, the system chosen must be proportionate to the aim pursued and the employees must be informed in advance https://www.edoeb.admin.ch/edoeb/en/home/datenschutz/arbeit_wirtschaft/datenbearbeitung-arbeitgeber/technisch-mittel-ueberwachung-arbeitsplatz.html https://www.edoeb.admin.ch/edoeb/en/home/datenschutz/arbeit_...
  - _nalply 3y ago
    In Switzerland it is forbidden to have a dashcam or a video camera recording public spaces. Last spring in Ireland we rented a cottage and then we discovered a video camera and could view some footage of us cluelessly strolling around the cottage. I had mixed feelings about that. Of course it's not a video camera inside, only the outside.
medler 3y ago
I didn’t quite understand the context so I looked into the Timedoctor software they mention. Timedoctor can be configured to periodically take a screenshot of your user’s (/employee’s) screen, so the boss can look back at what they were doing every e.g. 3 minutes over the course of the time they logged. They also offer continuous screen recording. https://support.timedoctor.com/knowledge/the-screencasts-screenshots-feature https://support.timedoctor.com/knowledge/the-screencasts-scr...
sircastor 3y ago
I love how unapologetic the response is. Calling it what is, how it’s abused, and by whom.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
weinzierl 3y ago
He should have added it but with a shutter sound and a screen flash for every shot taken.
- thih9 3y ago
  I’d prefer if every “screenshot” was generating an image with a terminal window with code from some random open source project. Bonus points for a matrix color scheme and some hexadecimal strings.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  And any station that can be monitored by boss station, can monitor boss station too. Sure here you go, screen shots, live monitor, recording, audio too...but everyone gets it the same.
drusepth 3y ago
I intentionally use screenshotting time-tracking software because it's nice to not have to worry about trusting my clients: screenshots add one more layer of legal proof that I'm actually working if they ever try to stiff me on payments.
- thih9 3y ago
  Who controls the data? Are the screenshots sent automatically to the employer? How do you handle the sensitive information (api keys, user personal data) that can be displayed in the screenshots?
  - drusepth 3y ago
    I used to use the Upwork tracker a lot which sends the screenshots to a third party (Upwork) where both parties could view (or remove) the screenshots. Having some kind of trusted third party or paper trail (if sending by e.g. email) seems necessary to prove any potentially-produced-later screenshots were in fact created at the time of work. It might be different for others, but for most sensitive data I'm privy to on a job (api keys, their users' personal data), my employer could or should already have access to all of that. I've removed the occasional screenshot that had a personal dev tool key or similar though. Typically all this should be covered by a contract with a client though; they shouldn't just be stealing API keys and whatnot from your screenshots...
    - thih9 3y ago
      > most sensitive data I'm privy to on a job (api keys, their users' personal data), my employer could or should already have access to all of that It’s about storage though. It’s one thing if your employer can access the data from an encrypted database with carefully managed access - and another to also keep it in a random screenshot in a third party time tracking tool. There are also regulations and requirements, for example about deletion of personal data.
      - drusepth 3y ago
davedx 3y ago
Ha I got started on the freelancer websites like Upwork where you have to install spyware that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes. Kind of depressing way to work but it did get me started with freelancing.
- 1oooqooq 3y ago
  I'm sorry. hope you heal before start inflicting it on others.
  - davedx 3y ago
    I quickly moved to more trusting clients thankfully, and have never considered doing this to people working with or for me. :)
ofrzeta 3y ago
They have a great code of conduct as well: "Don't be an ass!"

106 points by ta_9390 3y ago

vehementi 3y ago

[flagged]

Spivak 3y ago
If you can't tell that your employees are actually doing work without one of these tools then what are you paying them for? What computer job has no externally visible sign of work being done except "looks busy?"
- exe34 3y ago
  Middle management.
- playingalong 3y ago
  I don't agree with it myself... ... but more often than you would hope any maintenance work is considered like this. System maintenance, codebase maintenance. Even some sorts of support too.
- mckn1ght 3y ago
  And if people are resting and vesting, even if it’s not a pay issue, there’s definitely a culture issue in the company. You also need good examples from leadership, good recognition of good work, good ways to provide both positive and negative feedback, good roadmap planning, choose the “right” things to work on that are both intellectually challenging and provide good value for customers, have good engineering processes in place that minimize gatekeepers and pedantic bikeshedding… Not to say any of that is easy. Just that the natural consequence of getting too much of it wrong is that people just mentally check out.
  - vehementi 3y ago
    I'm on a non-tech-related Vancouver discord server, and I can name 10 people on there who work in tech and actively try to do the least they can get away with at jobs, or work multiple jobs secretly, etc. and not one of them complains about money. You can no-true-Corporationsman it if you want but there are a lot of people who are naturally actively shady like that.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      Doing the least you can at work is also called "meeting expectations." Why are you going above and beyond to create value you won't capture? If someone is willing to pay you a lot for not doing much and is happy with your output then what's the issue? People working multiple jobs is typically a sign of hard work. They could be playing Xbox instead but they chose more work. Spinning working on things that no one asked you to do to fill the free time can't be better for you or the economy than doing useful work somewhere else. Like yeah sure it's probably a violation of your employment contract or whatever but ignoring the rules is practically the west coast hacker spirit. And ethically I have no issue with it at all. You can pay for hours or output, when I meet my output goals the excess hours are mine back. Folks will unironically joke "the reward for hard work is more work," put zero additional thought into it, work hard and wake up 10 years later burnt out, getting 2% raises, with their job consuming their whole lives.
      - vehementi 3y ago
        I am kinda tiring of seeing this rationalization. Don't you see, it's on the company to fire you if your productivity is low! Feel free to do nothing or as little as possible! That's such trash. If you're in software and are being honest you know we are not being paid for our output. Where are you working where the understanding is that if you get assigned a task for the week and finish it in one hour, it is common knowledge between you and your management chain that you have the rest of the week off and the CEO says "nice, see ya!"? Where your team says the same and doesn't look at you sideways? No, we aren't being paid for output, we are being paid for being as productive as we can (sustainably) for the generally accepted hours (9-5 or whatever your company says), and continually improving our skills. There is a general extreme difficulty to measure and track and enforce that (because as we all know, estimation is hard and shit happens) which is where trust comes in and why companies are so vulnerable to people working less and lying about it -- it's super difficult to verify.
- vehementi 3y ago
  All software development? You can work at 25% pace and get away with it at most places. Sandbag, attend lots of meetings, be "blocked" by things often, etc. It's not about literally producing nothing, it's about working from 11-2 (or whatever, depends on what these people try to get away with)

INTPenis 3y ago

So is this like a remote administration tool then? Since I'm assuming you'd want to trigger the screenshot remotely from a central server that manages kimai clients.

furyofantares 3y ago
"Kimai is a free and open-source project time-tracker."
- INTPenis 3y ago
  Yeah I noticed that, which is why I'm confused about this screenshot feature being invasive. Unless it's remotely managed, it would only be screenshots taken by you, and stored by you, in your time tracker.
  - furyofantares 3y ago
    Things don't need to be remotely managed for the user to lack control. The client software could take periodic screenshots during tracked time which are sent along when the user reports their tracked time.
    - INTPenis 3y ago
      That would make it centrally managed. Unless the user can override this configuration, we're talking about remote administration. Either through this tool, or through some other tool that deploys it and ensures the user cannot change it. Kudos to the developer for standing their ground, but if we're talking about a remotely managed client computer then I don't think there's much the user can do to protect their privacy.
      - furyofantares 3y ago
        It sounds like adding this feature would turn the software into something you consider remotely administered.

lakpan 3y ago

The most interesting part of this tool is that it has enterprise features and it’s still free. I mean why. You’re producing a product to handle large amounts of money and you don’t want a cut?

afavour 3y ago
They offer a hosted version so they’re making money, even if they could earn more if they wanted.
uoaei 3y ago
Usually means they're getting paid in other ways.
- soganess 3y ago
  Yeah really sounds like it ::eye roll:: https://www.kimai.org/en/about.html https://www.kimai.org/en/about.html Seems like it is just a one person project with donations and a paid SaaS tier if you don't want to role your own.

repomies69 3y ago

Maybe start corporate-friendly fork

sschueller 3y ago

He's not wrong and tracking your employees like that is actually illegal in Switzerland and probably other places as well. In fact if you install security cameras in your work place they can not be used to track employees. You are permitted to gather overall metrics over all employees but you can't track individuals. There are exceptions but only for very specific instances. If you don't trust your employees to do the work then what guarantee do you have that they do their work well? This is how you end up with door hinges meant for the front ending up installed in the rear. Zero trust means their is zero incentive for the employee to give a shit about doing their job right.

perdjesk 3y ago
Switzerland laws don't have an overall prohibition expressed that directly. Moreover the videosurveillance and system surveillance are treated separately even if some common laws apply. The intent of the surveillance and the communication to employees is more relevant thant the technical means. > In short, a surveillance system is prohibited if it is intended solely or primarily to monitor the actual behaviour of employees. However, the same system will not be prohibited if it is used for on legitimate reasons, such as ensuring safety or enabling the organisation or planning of work. However, the system chosen must be proportionate to the aim pursued and the employees must be informed in advance https://www.edoeb.admin.ch/edoeb/en/home/datenschutz/arbeit_wirtschaft/datenbearbeitung-arbeitgeber/technisch-mittel-ueberwachung-arbeitsplatz.html https://www.edoeb.admin.ch/edoeb/en/home/datenschutz/arbeit_...
- _nalply 3y ago
  In Switzerland it is forbidden to have a dashcam or a video camera recording public spaces. Last spring in Ireland we rented a cottage and then we discovered a video camera and could view some footage of us cluelessly strolling around the cottage. I had mixed feelings about that. Of course it's not a video camera inside, only the outside.

medler 3y ago

I didn’t quite understand the context so I looked into the Timedoctor software they mention. Timedoctor can be configured to periodically take a screenshot of your user’s (/employee’s) screen, so the boss can look back at what they were doing every e.g. 3 minutes over the course of the time they logged. They also offer continuous screen recording. https://support.timedoctor.com/knowledge/the-screencasts-screenshots-feature https://support.timedoctor.com/knowledge/the-screencasts-scr...

sircastor 3y ago

I love how unapologetic the response is. Calling it what is, how it’s abused, and by whom.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

weinzierl 3y ago

He should have added it but with a shutter sound and a screen flash for every shot taken.

thih9 3y ago
I’d prefer if every “screenshot” was generating an image with a terminal window with code from some random open source project. Bonus points for a matrix color scheme and some hexadecimal strings.
Brian_K_White 3y ago
And any station that can be monitored by boss station, can monitor boss station too. Sure here you go, screen shots, live monitor, recording, audio too...but everyone gets it the same.

drusepth 3y ago

I intentionally use screenshotting time-tracking software because it's nice to not have to worry about trusting my clients: screenshots add one more layer of legal proof that I'm actually working if they ever try to stiff me on payments.

thih9 3y ago
Who controls the data? Are the screenshots sent automatically to the employer? How do you handle the sensitive information (api keys, user personal data) that can be displayed in the screenshots?
- drusepth 3y ago
  I used to use the Upwork tracker a lot which sends the screenshots to a third party (Upwork) where both parties could view (or remove) the screenshots. Having some kind of trusted third party or paper trail (if sending by e.g. email) seems necessary to prove any potentially-produced-later screenshots were in fact created at the time of work. It might be different for others, but for most sensitive data I'm privy to on a job (api keys, their users' personal data), my employer could or should already have access to all of that. I've removed the occasional screenshot that had a personal dev tool key or similar though. Typically all this should be covered by a contract with a client though; they shouldn't just be stealing API keys and whatnot from your screenshots...
  - thih9 3y ago
    > most sensitive data I'm privy to on a job (api keys, their users' personal data), my employer could or should already have access to all of that It’s about storage though. It’s one thing if your employer can access the data from an encrypted database with carefully managed access - and another to also keep it in a random screenshot in a third party time tracking tool. There are also regulations and requirements, for example about deletion of personal data.
    - drusepth 3y ago

davedx 3y ago

Ha I got started on the freelancer websites like Upwork where you have to install spyware that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes. Kind of depressing way to work but it did get me started with freelancing.

1oooqooq 3y ago
I'm sorry. hope you heal before start inflicting it on others.
- davedx 3y ago
  I quickly moved to more trusting clients thankfully, and have never considered doing this to people working with or for me. :)

ofrzeta 3y ago

They have a great code of conduct as well: "Don't be an ass!"