11 ms·

A Spark Extinguished

226 points by conanxin 3y ago

bckr 3y ago
My life is so sweet and easy. Edit: thought it would be obvious I meant “After reading this in its entirety, I realize that compared to the troubles these people went through, my life is so sweet and easy”
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
yourapostasy 3y ago
I've learned over the years of traveling and speaking with ethnic Chinese and Chinese nationals that I make my acquaintance with, that there are numerous tragic stories like this in China and throughout the diaspora. Many are only preserved through family oral traditions and many of those will die out with the population decline. I've heard it expressed that modern day China has a lot of spirit (energetic vigor), but is still seeking its soul (embodied contemplative wonderment and compassion for all around ourselves, as opposed to dogmatic spirituality per se), and was struck by how apt that was to political leadership in all nations, and to an equal or lesser extent their peoples, depending upon the nation.
- woooooo 3y ago
  What I've heard is that the great leap forward and associated famine are acknowledged in official accounts, but the cultural revolution is increasingly downplayed. The latter is more worrisome to me because it required enthusiastic participation by lots of normal people to get off the ground. That lesson should be remembered.
  - rfrey 3y ago
    In the west we can't even seem to hold on to the lessons from 1930s-40s Europe, despite an incredible amount of documentation and retrospection. What hope is there when the history of the cultural revolution is being actively suppressed?
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Somehow, our ancestors built a free democratic world without having all our advantages. As what we've taken for granted as been assaulted and damaged, it would be good to remember what they acheived, and how they did it, from much worse positions - without even a prior example or history to build on. They created democracy, women's rights, etc. despite almost an entire human history of doing otherwise. We only have to look back 10 years.
      - Cheer2171 3y ago
        The lack of modern technology is an advantage, not a disadvantage. It is harder to start any democratic revolution against authoritarianism now than in the past. The modern information age makes it harder, not easier. To search someone's papers, you used to have to get police officers to physically enter their home and break their locks, in front of all their neighbors. You used to need to enlist 5-10 people to spy on a single potential dissident 24/7, and that surveillance is easier to detect. To effectively spy on a population, you used to need to enlist 10-30% of the population to spy on their neighbors and filter reports. To get the people's attention, you didn't have to get your message through a chaotic attention economy powered by the platforms that filter the information overload. There was literally a public square where you could reach your audience by handing out hand produced pamphlets.
  - yorwba 3y ago
    Between the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, there were the Four Cleanups, which are even less remembered, probably because they mostly affected the countryside and didn't hit urban citizens as hard as the Cultural Revolution did. From Huang Shu-min's The Spiral Road: We decided to attack the five bad elements first, to set an example for the villagers and to intimidate anyone who dared to challenge our authority. Members of the five bad elements were brought up to the podium and forced to kneel down facing the crowd. There was a middle-aged woman among the bad elements. The high-level cadre from the prefecture signaled a poor peasant to come and asked him at close earshot: 'Is that a "landlord's wife" (dizhupo)?' The poor peasant answered: 'Yes, cadre,' went up to that woman, and pressed her head down to the floor throughout the struggle session. At the end of the meeting the high-level cadre asked this poor peasant, 'Why did you force that woman's head down for so long? I thought that this campaign was supposed to avoid unnecessary physical abuse.' The poor peasant answered: 'But, cadre, I thought you had given me the order to force her "head down" (dizhetou)!'
shikeerzhi 3y ago
The political stronghold in China appears well fortified. With every year that passes, the optimization gradient from government to people re-enforces the complicity. The differences in written and oral language make clandestine operations difficult. How many of the 2600 Politburo members are intelligence assets? Likely few to none. The situation is clearly suboptimal from a human perspective: oppressive power is categorically bad, we take this truth to be self-evident. In terms of catalytic change, what are some out of the box ideas that would rise to the challenge? 1. New forms of biotechnology minorly resemblant of targeted mind control. For example, any nanotechnology-based vector sufficiently power to trigger behaviors like a voluntary mass resignation of party members. Alternatively, a controlled pandemic that somehow interfaces with compromised electronics to temporarily modulate behavior. But this ask is too high, and such technology would surely be deployed towards even geopolitical goals first. 2. Incredibly high velocity targeted counterpropaganda that is also historically truthful. Some of the earliest StarCraft bots that defeated humans were simply very good at controlling mass mutalisk swarm. A rapid and unexpected infiltration with truth bombs, ideally physical or written rather than electronic to make censorship challenges, could cause a (probably uncontrolled chain reaction). 3. Inducement of a Taiwan takeover, and subsequent loss. Very high collateral damage and seems widely destructive rather than more “peaceful.” 4. Weird deus ex machinas. In the Three Body Problem, theoretical physicist start hallucinating a countdown timer. A covert leap in physics or technologies to induce “mystic breaks” in relevant sub populations, particularly those in power, could lead to mostly voluntary abdications of power. 5. Something more insidious or pernicious related to improved clandestine operation. 6. Straightforward domination, such as through a deployment of a sovereign but appropriately aligned or controlled AI fleet that maintains the balance of a covert takeover / disassembly of the power structure but phase transitions organically to redistribute power to the wider populace before halting or terminating itself. A lot of these require sci fi, non-existence technology, or risk of armageddon. Are there alternatives (that don’t require classified information or a SCIF) that don’t rely on these or is the task complexity simply at that scale?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
amadeuspagel 3y ago
> In the 2000s, the underground filmmaker Hu Jie interviewed most of the survivors and in 2013 released online one of his best-known films, Spark. This film is available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iay4eXyUb7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iay4eXyUb7k
coolhand2120 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
CitizenKane 3y ago
What an interesting tale and gripping read. I've lived in China and surprised that I've never heard of this before. For those unaware, not a whole lot has changed since that time unfortunately. China has had certain periods where they had opened up somewhat, but those days are long gone to my knowledge. If anything the repression may be even greater these days in some ways, though at least there isn't any kind of mass starvation going on as far as I'm aware. The current system also seems to be more of a riff on the old imperial system rather than something fundamentally new. In the past it was an imperial examination to join the Mandarin class[1], now it's a test to join the CPC [2]. Either way, if you don't get in your opportunities are limited. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(bureaucrat) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(bureaucrat) [2] https://daily.jstor.org/communist-party-of-china/ https://daily.jstor.org/communist-party-of-china/
- dist-epoch 3y ago
  > I've lived in China and surprised that I've never heard of this before. Why is that surprising? The regime is very thorough in scrubbing history.
  - like_any_other 3y ago
    That is why it is surprising - to them.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > The current system also seems to be more of a riff on the old imperial system From a distance it seems like government policy is, in many ways, also the imperial system returned, almost like the CCP is the new dynasty (though not hereditary). The focus on corruption (not among political allies, of course), which the imperial system saw as its eventual downfall - IIRC Chinese history at least traditionally taught there were three repeating phases to a dynastic cycle: ascendency, corruption, chaos, then ascendency again .... The perspective on other countries as inevitably inferior. The attempt, post-Opium Wars, to hold onto power by adopting Western technology without adopting Western culture, such as political, intellectual, and economic freedom (it never went well, as you might expect). Even the nine dashed line geographical claims are, IIRC, from the Qing dynasty.
Isamu 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
boznz 3y ago
This story will unfortunately be told again and again, in a thousand languages, until the end of time.
- em500 3y ago
  Many years ago I read Animal Farm (1945) and Wild Swans (1991) almost back to back. It was startling how much of China's post-WW2 history was already written before it happened.
poulpy123 3y ago
There is some irony in the fact that the Bolshevik newspaper was also called spark (iskra) and from a similar saying as the one that gave the name to Zhang Chunyuan's newpaper
derelicta 3y ago
> Ian Johnson is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. That's a fancy name for a CIA propagandist. But how silly of me to even suggest that, for the US is a democracy and thus doesn't play this propaganda game, right guys?

226 points by conanxin 3y ago

bckr 3y ago

My life is so sweet and easy. Edit: thought it would be obvious I meant “After reading this in its entirety, I realize that compared to the troubles these people went through, my life is so sweet and easy”

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

yourapostasy 3y ago

I've learned over the years of traveling and speaking with ethnic Chinese and Chinese nationals that I make my acquaintance with, that there are numerous tragic stories like this in China and throughout the diaspora. Many are only preserved through family oral traditions and many of those will die out with the population decline. I've heard it expressed that modern day China has a lot of spirit (energetic vigor), but is still seeking its soul (embodied contemplative wonderment and compassion for all around ourselves, as opposed to dogmatic spirituality per se), and was struck by how apt that was to political leadership in all nations, and to an equal or lesser extent their peoples, depending upon the nation.

woooooo 3y ago
What I've heard is that the great leap forward and associated famine are acknowledged in official accounts, but the cultural revolution is increasingly downplayed. The latter is more worrisome to me because it required enthusiastic participation by lots of normal people to get off the ground. That lesson should be remembered.
- rfrey 3y ago
  In the west we can't even seem to hold on to the lessons from 1930s-40s Europe, despite an incredible amount of documentation and retrospection. What hope is there when the history of the cultural revolution is being actively suppressed?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Somehow, our ancestors built a free democratic world without having all our advantages. As what we've taken for granted as been assaulted and damaged, it would be good to remember what they acheived, and how they did it, from much worse positions - without even a prior example or history to build on. They created democracy, women's rights, etc. despite almost an entire human history of doing otherwise. We only have to look back 10 years.
    - Cheer2171 3y ago
      The lack of modern technology is an advantage, not a disadvantage. It is harder to start any democratic revolution against authoritarianism now than in the past. The modern information age makes it harder, not easier. To search someone's papers, you used to have to get police officers to physically enter their home and break their locks, in front of all their neighbors. You used to need to enlist 5-10 people to spy on a single potential dissident 24/7, and that surveillance is easier to detect. To effectively spy on a population, you used to need to enlist 10-30% of the population to spy on their neighbors and filter reports. To get the people's attention, you didn't have to get your message through a chaotic attention economy powered by the platforms that filter the information overload. There was literally a public square where you could reach your audience by handing out hand produced pamphlets.
- yorwba 3y ago
  Between the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, there were the Four Cleanups, which are even less remembered, probably because they mostly affected the countryside and didn't hit urban citizens as hard as the Cultural Revolution did. From Huang Shu-min's The Spiral Road: We decided to attack the five bad elements first, to set an example for the villagers and to intimidate anyone who dared to challenge our authority. Members of the five bad elements were brought up to the podium and forced to kneel down facing the crowd. There was a middle-aged woman among the bad elements. The high-level cadre from the prefecture signaled a poor peasant to come and asked him at close earshot: 'Is that a "landlord's wife" (dizhupo)?' The poor peasant answered: 'Yes, cadre,' went up to that woman, and pressed her head down to the floor throughout the struggle session. At the end of the meeting the high-level cadre asked this poor peasant, 'Why did you force that woman's head down for so long? I thought that this campaign was supposed to avoid unnecessary physical abuse.' The poor peasant answered: 'But, cadre, I thought you had given me the order to force her "head down" (dizhetou)!'

shikeerzhi 3y ago

The political stronghold in China appears well fortified. With every year that passes, the optimization gradient from government to people re-enforces the complicity. The differences in written and oral language make clandestine operations difficult. How many of the 2600 Politburo members are intelligence assets? Likely few to none. The situation is clearly suboptimal from a human perspective: oppressive power is categorically bad, we take this truth to be self-evident. In terms of catalytic change, what are some out of the box ideas that would rise to the challenge? 1. New forms of biotechnology minorly resemblant of targeted mind control. For example, any nanotechnology-based vector sufficiently power to trigger behaviors like a voluntary mass resignation of party members. Alternatively, a controlled pandemic that somehow interfaces with compromised electronics to temporarily modulate behavior. But this ask is too high, and such technology would surely be deployed towards even geopolitical goals first. 2. Incredibly high velocity targeted counterpropaganda that is also historically truthful. Some of the earliest StarCraft bots that defeated humans were simply very good at controlling mass mutalisk swarm. A rapid and unexpected infiltration with truth bombs, ideally physical or written rather than electronic to make censorship challenges, could cause a (probably uncontrolled chain reaction). 3. Inducement of a Taiwan takeover, and subsequent loss. Very high collateral damage and seems widely destructive rather than more “peaceful.” 4. Weird deus ex machinas. In the Three Body Problem, theoretical physicist start hallucinating a countdown timer. A covert leap in physics or technologies to induce “mystic breaks” in relevant sub populations, particularly those in power, could lead to mostly voluntary abdications of power. 5. Something more insidious or pernicious related to improved clandestine operation. 6. Straightforward domination, such as through a deployment of a sovereign but appropriately aligned or controlled AI fleet that maintains the balance of a covert takeover / disassembly of the power structure but phase transitions organically to redistribute power to the wider populace before halting or terminating itself. A lot of these require sci fi, non-existence technology, or risk of armageddon. Are there alternatives (that don’t require classified information or a SCIF) that don’t rely on these or is the task complexity simply at that scale?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

amadeuspagel 3y ago

> In the 2000s, the underground filmmaker Hu Jie interviewed most of the survivors and in 2013 released online one of his best-known films, Spark. This film is available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iay4eXyUb7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iay4eXyUb7k

coolhand2120 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

CitizenKane 3y ago

What an interesting tale and gripping read. I've lived in China and surprised that I've never heard of this before. For those unaware, not a whole lot has changed since that time unfortunately. China has had certain periods where they had opened up somewhat, but those days are long gone to my knowledge. If anything the repression may be even greater these days in some ways, though at least there isn't any kind of mass starvation going on as far as I'm aware. The current system also seems to be more of a riff on the old imperial system rather than something fundamentally new. In the past it was an imperial examination to join the Mandarin class[1], now it's a test to join the CPC [2]. Either way, if you don't get in your opportunities are limited. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(bureaucrat) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(bureaucrat) [2] https://daily.jstor.org/communist-party-of-china/ https://daily.jstor.org/communist-party-of-china/

dist-epoch 3y ago
> I've lived in China and surprised that I've never heard of this before. Why is that surprising? The regime is very thorough in scrubbing history.
- like_any_other 3y ago
  That is why it is surprising - to them.
wolverine876 3y ago
> The current system also seems to be more of a riff on the old imperial system From a distance it seems like government policy is, in many ways, also the imperial system returned, almost like the CCP is the new dynasty (though not hereditary). The focus on corruption (not among political allies, of course), which the imperial system saw as its eventual downfall - IIRC Chinese history at least traditionally taught there were three repeating phases to a dynastic cycle: ascendency, corruption, chaos, then ascendency again .... The perspective on other countries as inevitably inferior. The attempt, post-Opium Wars, to hold onto power by adopting Western technology without adopting Western culture, such as political, intellectual, and economic freedom (it never went well, as you might expect). Even the nine dashed line geographical claims are, IIRC, from the Qing dynasty.

Isamu 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

boznz 3y ago

This story will unfortunately be told again and again, in a thousand languages, until the end of time.

em500 3y ago
Many years ago I read Animal Farm (1945) and Wild Swans (1991) almost back to back. It was startling how much of China's post-WW2 history was already written before it happened.

poulpy123 3y ago

There is some irony in the fact that the Bolshevik newspaper was also called spark (iskra) and from a similar saying as the one that gave the name to Zhang Chunyuan's newpaper

derelicta 3y ago

> Ian Johnson is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. That's a fancy name for a CIA propagandist. But how silly of me to even suggest that, for the US is a democracy and thus doesn't play this propaganda game, right guys?