10 ms·

Judge Alsup learns to code and schools Oracle

494 points by vibrunazo 14y ago

cromwellian 14y ago
I just wish Florian Mueller would learn how to code. :)
memset 14y ago
Can someone point me to the source, and context, of what Judge Alsup said that led to this post?
- glesica 14y ago
  http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322
vibrunazo 14y ago
The post on Groklaw he is referring to. Very fun read: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 (the quoted part is on update 5)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway63-90 14y ago
Alsup: "How could you even make that argument?" Oracle: "Because Oracle is paying me to make losing arguments? Because I can't code, and I don't need to? I get paid to file lawsuits. Judge Alsup, I'm just a caveman lawyer..."
jmillikin 14y ago
Article appears to be a mis-statment of the actual quote (from http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322) > Judge: We heard the testimony of Mr. Bloch. I couldn't > have told you the first thing about Java before this > problem. I have done, and still do, a significant amount > of programming in other languages. I've written blocks of > code like rangeCheck a hundred times before. I could do > it, you could do it. The idea that someone would copy that > when they could do it themselves just as fast, it was an > accident. There's no way you could say that was speeding > them along to the marketplace. You're one of the best > lawyers in America, how could you even make that kind of > argument? It sounds like the judge is saying that he has written code before, just not in Java. Presumably this was some time ago, before he decided to become a judge.
- kenko 14y ago
  He says he still does a significant amount of coding, actually! This is some Posner-like polymathism out of a judge.
  - jahmed 14y ago
    Disappointing that Judge Posner will probably never be a Supreme Court Justice.
- gambler 14y ago
  Seems like this is a good answer to those asking "how could learning to code help X to do their political job". That's how. By giving them some basic sense of proportions when it comes to software.
  - trentmb 14y ago
    The same could apply to any field.
    - glesica 14y ago
      Which is exactly why a liberally (small 'L') educated population is so critically important to the functioning of a representative government.
      - Jach 14y ago
        This doesn't quite follow... The objection I thought of is that if you have a populace where most members believe they know a subject well enough, perhaps because they "went over the fundamentals for a couple weeks in a college course", actual experts are less able to influence policy in an actually effective way since "everyone is an expert" and there will be disagreements; people won't see their ignorance as mountainous but merely as "a weekend of study would catch me up". There are plenty of good arguments for a broadly-but-shallowly educated populace, but I don't think this is really one of them.
creamyhorror 14y ago
Judge Alsup didn't learn to code during the trial - he already coded before it! It's just that he learned about Java during the trial. --- Judge Alsup: "I couldn't have told you the first thing about Java before this problem. I have done, and still do, a significant amount of programming in other languages. I've written blocks of code like rangeCheck a hundred times before." ---
NZ_Matt 14y ago
Is there anyway to view this without being forced into creating a google+ account? edit: I can see it when browsing from my pc, on mobile I get redirected to a G+ signup form.
- jmillikin 14y ago
  You don't have to create a google+ account to read it. I just tested in a logged-out browser, and it worked fine.
  - NZ_Matt 14y ago
    Thanks, the signup redirect appears to be mobile only.
    - Joeri 14y ago
      Yup, same here, mobile devices must go through a g+ signup to get to the content. This aggressive pushing of g+ is why i won't use it, and nobody else should either.
      - jonah 14y ago
        Curious. On my Android phone I was able to see the post.
  - tomdtpink 14y ago
    Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Long live neckbeards. Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.
drumdance 14y ago
Leads me to believe that "all patent office employees should learn to code." (Yes, I know this technically about copyright, but the principle still applies.)
- Drbble 14y ago
  Most recent patent officers in the computing area are programmers.
  - antidoh 14y ago
    Since you've been downvoted (not by me), I'll ask for a citation, for interest and so that you can redeem your post.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
apetresc 14y ago
What's more interesting is Oracle's lawyer's "rebuttal" to Alsup (according to Groklaw): > I'm not an expert on Java -- this is my second case on Java, but I'm not an > expert, and I probably couldn't program [rangeCheck] in six months. I don't know, how can anyone be taken seriously after something like that? He's clearly either stupid or willfully ignorant if he thinks he (a no doubt well-educated and intelligent man) couldn't learn to program rangeCheck in six months. Yes, I know, of course his defence against this charge will be "I can't be expected to know industry-specific things like this," but then why on Earth are you allowed to regulate and prosecute it?
- scott_s 14y ago
  Perhaps you classify this as willfully ignorant, but I suspect he has no idea what it is like to program. He also probably assumes that if they're litigating it, it must be important or hard to do. With mental barriers like that, I could see him believing he couldn't do it in six months. But, again, you may consider that the same as willful ignorance.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    It's almost certainly willful ignorance. Boies is a very talented litigator and one important skill for a litigator is quickly achieving a fluency in the subject matter of the litigation. Boies has done quite a bit of software work, so he almost certainly gets the gist of what it is like to program.
- sgfc 14y ago
  As a service provider to any industry, it is fundamental that one understand the product. Lawyering is no different but as an attorney it astounds me how many times this is simply ignored. I believe it is incumbent upon the attorneys to understand the basics of any industry that they are involved with. I first learned BASIC in 1980(?) and have been an amateur ever since and I do believe that has helped me relate to my clients. BTW, thanks to HN I "learned" Ruby shortly after the posting of a great article on _why.
- jabr 14y ago
shanemhansen 14y ago
What a stud, and what a perfect rebuttal to the deeply flawed "Please don't learn to code". Willful ignorance is never a good solution. It's due in large part to the how fashionable it is to be "dumb", and "non-techy", and "etc" that our public policy w/ respect to science and technology is such a junk show. The only way out of the current patent mess and into some semblance of a functioning society which can actually enjoy the fruits of technology and invention is people like this Judge who have "learned to code".
codeka 14y ago
On a slightly different note (from that same Groklaw article), I like Oracle's defense against Google's claim that they didn't have access to the patents in question: "Access? Google organizes the world's information! Of course they had access to the patents."
- shrikant 14y ago
  Also, Google Patent Search. http://www.google.com/patents http://www.google.com/patents
freditup 14y ago
It's good they got a judge who knows a little about programming :D As far as the case in general, I think it's quite interesting, but I personally feel Oracle has somewhat of a case, but to what extent, I don't know.
- nitrogen 14y ago
  Another important question apart from whether Oracle has a case, is whether Oracle should have a case when the results of that case are taken in the context of the entire software industry. In other words, is the law giving Oracle a valid claim against Google worth the potential damage caused to software development outside of Oracle and Google?
- tomdtpink 14y ago
  Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Long live neckbeards. Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
kstrauser 14y ago
His middle name is Haskell. What did you expect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup
ryanmarsh 14y ago
Judge Alsup for Supreme Court Justice!!!
rayiner 14y ago
It's actually a little dangerous for the Judge to be introducing his personal experience like this. The Judge cannot serve as a witness, and editorializing in a way that amounts to the presentation of expert testimony can be grounds for reversal.
- jim-greer 14y ago
  The jury was not present for this exchange, since it was a motion. I think reduces the danger considerably, but I'm not a lawyer.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Ah, didn't catch that part. Yes it does.
asmala 14y ago
Having followed this case for some time now, I almost get the feeling that the judge is taking sides. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely cheering on Google and find Oracle's case despicable and absurd, but still.
- manmal 14y ago
  Judges always take sides - they are humans after all. Their job is it to ignore that and let "justicia" decide. Given how ridiculous Oracle's claims are, he has to look after it that ridicule does not take over and damages the trial.. I don't think he really sides with Google, he has probably just adopted his programmer's world view in this case, and sees how ridiculous the claims really are. In many other tech cases (ahem, copyright infringement) judges are not as competent and can't imagine the real implications of their rulings.
grellas 14y ago
The quoted exchange is between Judge Alsup and Oracle's counsel, David Boies, and concerns the issue of what damages Oracle intends to seek in phase 3 of this trial (phase 1: copyright liability; phase 2: patent liability; phase 3: damages). The jury hung on the major copyright claims and the judge has yet to rule on the ultimate question whether the 37 Java API packages at issue are even protectible by copyright. Oracle proved infringement concerning the nine lines of code constituting rangeCheck and the judge held as a matter of law that Google had infringed respecting a couple of test files that were subsequently removed from Android. In this context, under applicable law, Oracle may elect to get statutory damages of $150K for each of the infringements or it may elect to go after what are known as "infringer's profits" - meaning that it would ask the jury to award it damages measured by profits made by Google on account of the infringing acts. Mr. Boies is telling the judge that Oracle wants to go for infringer's profits "as a matter of principle" and the judge is telling him, in effect, that he is astounded that Oracle would be prepared to make a claim for a billion dollars (or some other very large number) based essentially on nine lines of code among the tens of millions of lines of code in Android and a few test files. Mr. Boies strains to offer various rationales for how Oracle might prove damages of this type, mostly tied to the idea that Google gained in time to market for its Android product by relying on the infringing materials. The judge basically tells him that this position is ridiculous and that he cannot believe that an attorney of Mr. Boies's stature would even make it (at one point, he notes that Oracle is trying to make a "federal case" out of this and, catching himself, says (I paraphrase here), "oops, this is a federal case . . . well, seeks to make a bigger federal case out of it than it is"). (The Groklaw report on this exchange is worth reading and even fun in spots - it may be found here: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322#Update_5 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322#U...) This exchange highlights the rather unfavorable position that Oracle finds itself in on the copyright issues. It has won nothing of significance and stands to get very little from the jury on these issues. Concerning the broader claims on which the jury hung, it still faces a potent objection from Google that it cannot assert copyright violations based on the 37 API packages owing to defects in how the Java program was registered with the copyright office. It also faces the risk that the judge or a court of appeals will hold that APIs are not copyrightable. A word on this last item: Much as the developer community believes very strongly that APIs should not be copyrightable, the Ninth Circuit law that is binding on this judge (beginning with Johnson Controls in 1989) is not particularly favorable in that it provides that software programs are to be analyzed item-by-item on the facts of each particular case to determine whether any particular component is protectible expression versus an unprotectible idea, function, system, or method of operation (this is in stark contrast to the First Circuit, which held that judges could make categorical judgments that certain components are functional by nature and hence unprotectible by copyright (as opposed to patent), as the menu structure was held to be many years ago in the Lotus/Borland case. Google is arguing the issue categorically ("APIs are inherently unprotectible under copyright law") but this makes for a tough sell in a jurisdiction where the appellate authority has said that such issues cannot be categorically determined. Google has alternative arguments, the main one tied to a leading Ninth Circuit case (Sega) that Google argues enables copying of functional elements of any program needed to ensure compatability. But, in my view, astute as this judge is, he will be bound to apply the fact-specific approach, making it tough for him to adopt Google's strongest argument and thus significantly reducing the prospects for a definitive ruling from the judge along the lines sought by Google (of course, this might come on appeal, where the court is free to reshape its earlier precedents in light of modern-day realities in the software world).
justindocanto 14y ago
Begins Slow Clap
- justindocanto 14y ago
  Awe come on. 4 down votes?! Fine....
strlen 14y ago
Very curious to what kind of code he has written: was it a part of his judicial duties, on his own?
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gaius 14y ago
I posted a comment on a legal article, and I have now learnt to be a lawyer! Tomorrow I'll be a judge!
RandyH 14y ago
All due respect, but I think the Judge is missing the point here. Its kind of like saying "I can carve a turkey, therefore any high-schooler could do open-heart surgery". Sure, its easy to check whether an integer is in a range. But THEN what do you do? Return 0? Throw an exception? How does the result of this little function combine with thousands of others to form a coherent and productive API? Of course, as system architects, we can decompose the large, complex problem into smaller problems, and repeat the process until the sub-tasks are trivial. But then for the Judge to look at one of the results of this process and declare the whole thing trivial is really a monumental misunderstanding of what goes into creating a world-class API.

494 points by vibrunazo 14y ago

cromwellian 14y ago

I just wish Florian Mueller would learn how to code. :)

memset 14y ago

Can someone point me to the source, and context, of what Judge Alsup said that led to this post?

glesica 14y ago
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322

vibrunazo 14y ago

The post on Groklaw he is referring to. Very fun read: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 (the quoted part is on update 5)

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

throwaway63-90 14y ago

Alsup: "How could you even make that argument?" Oracle: "Because Oracle is paying me to make losing arguments? Because I can't code, and I don't need to? I get paid to file lawsuits. Judge Alsup, I'm just a caveman lawyer..."

jmillikin 14y ago

Article appears to be a mis-statment of the actual quote (from http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322) > Judge: We heard the testimony of Mr. Bloch. I couldn't > have told you the first thing about Java before this > problem. I have done, and still do, a significant amount > of programming in other languages. I've written blocks of > code like rangeCheck a hundred times before. I could do > it, you could do it. The idea that someone would copy that > when they could do it themselves just as fast, it was an > accident. There's no way you could say that was speeding > them along to the marketplace. You're one of the best > lawyers in America, how could you even make that kind of > argument? It sounds like the judge is saying that he has written code before, just not in Java. Presumably this was some time ago, before he decided to become a judge.

kenko 14y ago
He says he still does a significant amount of coding, actually! This is some Posner-like polymathism out of a judge.
- jahmed 14y ago
  Disappointing that Judge Posner will probably never be a Supreme Court Justice.
gambler 14y ago
Seems like this is a good answer to those asking "how could learning to code help X to do their political job". That's how. By giving them some basic sense of proportions when it comes to software.
- trentmb 14y ago
  The same could apply to any field.
  - glesica 14y ago
    Which is exactly why a liberally (small 'L') educated population is so critically important to the functioning of a representative government.
    - Jach 14y ago
      This doesn't quite follow... The objection I thought of is that if you have a populace where most members believe they know a subject well enough, perhaps because they "went over the fundamentals for a couple weeks in a college course", actual experts are less able to influence policy in an actually effective way since "everyone is an expert" and there will be disagreements; people won't see their ignorance as mountainous but merely as "a weekend of study would catch me up". There are plenty of good arguments for a broadly-but-shallowly educated populace, but I don't think this is really one of them.

creamyhorror 14y ago

Judge Alsup didn't learn to code during the trial - he already coded before it! It's just that he learned about Java during the trial. --- Judge Alsup: "I couldn't have told you the first thing about Java before this problem. I have done, and still do, a significant amount of programming in other languages. I've written blocks of code like rangeCheck a hundred times before." ---

NZ_Matt 14y ago

Is there anyway to view this without being forced into creating a google+ account? edit: I can see it when browsing from my pc, on mobile I get redirected to a G+ signup form.

jmillikin 14y ago
You don't have to create a google+ account to read it. I just tested in a logged-out browser, and it worked fine.
- NZ_Matt 14y ago
  Thanks, the signup redirect appears to be mobile only.
  - Joeri 14y ago
    Yup, same here, mobile devices must go through a g+ signup to get to the content. This aggressive pushing of g+ is why i won't use it, and nobody else should either.
    - jonah 14y ago
      Curious. On my Android phone I was able to see the post.
- tomdtpink 14y ago
  Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Truth will be downvoted. Long live neckbeards. Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.Long live neckbeards.

drumdance 14y ago

Leads me to believe that "all patent office employees should learn to code." (Yes, I know this technically about copyright, but the principle still applies.)

Drbble 14y ago
Most recent patent officers in the computing area are programmers.
- antidoh 14y ago
  Since you've been downvoted (not by me), I'll ask for a citation, for interest and so that you can redeem your post.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

apetresc 14y ago

What's more interesting is Oracle's lawyer's "rebuttal" to Alsup (according to Groklaw): > I'm not an expert on Java -- this is my second case on Java, but I'm not an > expert, and I probably couldn't program [rangeCheck] in six months. I don't know, how can anyone be taken seriously after something like that? He's clearly either stupid or willfully ignorant if he thinks he (a no doubt well-educated and intelligent man) couldn't learn to program rangeCheck in six months. Yes, I know, of course his defence against this charge will be "I can't be expected to know industry-specific things like this," but then why on Earth are you allowed to regulate and prosecute it?

scott_s 14y ago
Perhaps you classify this as willfully ignorant, but I suspect he has no idea what it is like to program. He also probably assumes that if they're litigating it, it must be important or hard to do. With mental barriers like that, I could see him believing he couldn't do it in six months. But, again, you may consider that the same as willful ignorance.
- rayiner 14y ago
  It's almost certainly willful ignorance. Boies is a very talented litigator and one important skill for a litigator is quickly achieving a fluency in the subject matter of the litigation. Boies has done quite a bit of software work, so he almost certainly gets the gist of what it is like to program.
sgfc 14y ago
As a service provider to any industry, it is fundamental that one understand the product. Lawyering is no different but as an attorney it astounds me how many times this is simply ignored. I believe it is incumbent upon the attorneys to understand the basics of any industry that they are involved with. I first learned BASIC in 1980(?) and have been an amateur ever since and I do believe that has helped me relate to my clients. BTW, thanks to HN I "learned" Ruby shortly after the posting of a great article on _why.
jabr 14y ago

shanemhansen 14y ago

What a stud, and what a perfect rebuttal to the deeply flawed "Please don't learn to code". Willful ignorance is never a good solution. It's due in large part to the how fashionable it is to be "dumb", and "non-techy", and "etc" that our public policy w/ respect to science and technology is such a junk show. The only way out of the current patent mess and into some semblance of a functioning society which can actually enjoy the fruits of technology and invention is people like this Judge who have "learned to code".

codeka 14y ago

On a slightly different note (from that same Groklaw article), I like Oracle's defense against Google's claim that they didn't have access to the patents in question: "Access? Google organizes the world's information! Of course they had access to the patents."

shrikant 14y ago
Also, Google Patent Search. http://www.google.com/patents http://www.google.com/patents

freditup 14y ago

It's good they got a judge who knows a little about programming :D As far as the case in general, I think it's quite interesting, but I personally feel Oracle has somewhat of a case, but to what extent, I don't know.

nitrogen 14y ago
Another important question apart from whether Oracle has a case, is whether Oracle should have a case when the results of that case are taken in the context of the entire software industry. In other words, is the law giving Oracle a valid claim against Google worth the potential damage caused to software development outside of Oracle and Google?
tomdtpink 14y ago
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deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

kstrauser 14y ago

His middle name is Haskell. What did you expect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup

ryanmarsh 14y ago

Judge Alsup for Supreme Court Justice!!!

rayiner 14y ago

It's actually a little dangerous for the Judge to be introducing his personal experience like this. The Judge cannot serve as a witness, and editorializing in a way that amounts to the presentation of expert testimony can be grounds for reversal.

jim-greer 14y ago
The jury was not present for this exchange, since it was a motion. I think reduces the danger considerably, but I'm not a lawyer.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Ah, didn't catch that part. Yes it does.

asmala 14y ago

Having followed this case for some time now, I almost get the feeling that the judge is taking sides. Now don't get me wrong, I'm definitely cheering on Google and find Oracle's case despicable and absurd, but still.

manmal 14y ago
Judges always take sides - they are humans after all. Their job is it to ignore that and let "justicia" decide. Given how ridiculous Oracle's claims are, he has to look after it that ridicule does not take over and damages the trial.. I don't think he really sides with Google, he has probably just adopted his programmer's world view in this case, and sees how ridiculous the claims really are. In many other tech cases (ahem, copyright infringement) judges are not as competent and can't imagine the real implications of their rulings.

grellas 14y ago

The quoted exchange is between Judge Alsup and Oracle's counsel, David Boies, and concerns the issue of what damages Oracle intends to seek in phase 3 of this trial (phase 1: copyright liability; phase 2: patent liability; phase 3: damages). The jury hung on the major copyright claims and the judge has yet to rule on the ultimate question whether the 37 Java API packages at issue are even protectible by copyright. Oracle proved infringement concerning the nine lines of code constituting rangeCheck and the judge held as a matter of law that Google had infringed respecting a couple of test files that were subsequently removed from Android. In this context, under applicable law, Oracle may elect to get statutory damages of $150K for each of the infringements or it may elect to go after what are known as "infringer's profits" - meaning that it would ask the jury to award it damages measured by profits made by Google on account of the infringing acts. Mr. Boies is telling the judge that Oracle wants to go for infringer's profits "as a matter of principle" and the judge is telling him, in effect, that he is astounded that Oracle would be prepared to make a claim for a billion dollars (or some other very large number) based essentially on nine lines of code among the tens of millions of lines of code in Android and a few test files. Mr. Boies strains to offer various rationales for how Oracle might prove damages of this type, mostly tied to the idea that Google gained in time to market for its Android product by relying on the infringing materials. The judge basically tells him that this position is ridiculous and that he cannot believe that an attorney of Mr. Boies's stature would even make it (at one point, he notes that Oracle is trying to make a "federal case" out of this and, catching himself, says (I paraphrase here), "oops, this is a federal case . . . well, seeks to make a bigger federal case out of it than it is"). (The Groklaw report on this exchange is worth reading and even fun in spots - it may be found here: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322#Update_5 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120515120106322#U...) This exchange highlights the rather unfavorable position that Oracle finds itself in on the copyright issues. It has won nothing of significance and stands to get very little from the jury on these issues. Concerning the broader claims on which the jury hung, it still faces a potent objection from Google that it cannot assert copyright violations based on the 37 API packages owing to defects in how the Java program was registered with the copyright office. It also faces the risk that the judge or a court of appeals will hold that APIs are not copyrightable. A word on this last item: Much as the developer community believes very strongly that APIs should not be copyrightable, the Ninth Circuit law that is binding on this judge (beginning with Johnson Controls in 1989) is not particularly favorable in that it provides that software programs are to be analyzed item-by-item on the facts of each particular case to determine whether any particular component is protectible expression versus an unprotectible idea, function, system, or method of operation (this is in stark contrast to the First Circuit, which held that judges could make categorical judgments that certain components are functional by nature and hence unprotectible by copyright (as opposed to patent), as the menu structure was held to be many years ago in the Lotus/Borland case. Google is arguing the issue categorically ("APIs are inherently unprotectible under copyright law") but this makes for a tough sell in a jurisdiction where the appellate authority has said that such issues cannot be categorically determined. Google has alternative arguments, the main one tied to a leading Ninth Circuit case (Sega) that Google argues enables copying of functional elements of any program needed to ensure compatability. But, in my view, astute as this judge is, he will be bound to apply the fact-specific approach, making it tough for him to adopt Google's strongest argument and thus significantly reducing the prospects for a definitive ruling from the judge along the lines sought by Google (of course, this might come on appeal, where the court is free to reshape its earlier precedents in light of modern-day realities in the software world).

justindocanto 14y ago

Begins Slow Clap

justindocanto 14y ago
Awe come on. 4 down votes?! Fine....

strlen 14y ago

Very curious to what kind of code he has written: was it a part of his judicial duties, on his own?

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tomdtpink 14y ago

gaius 14y ago

I posted a comment on a legal article, and I have now learnt to be a lawyer! Tomorrow I'll be a judge!

RandyH 14y ago

All due respect, but I think the Judge is missing the point here. Its kind of like saying "I can carve a turkey, therefore any high-schooler could do open-heart surgery". Sure, its easy to check whether an integer is in a range. But THEN what do you do? Return 0? Throw an exception? How does the result of this little function combine with thousands of others to form a coherent and productive API? Of course, as system architects, we can decompose the large, complex problem into smaller problems, and repeat the process until the sub-tasks are trivial. But then for the Judge to look at one of the results of this process and declare the whole thing trivial is really a monumental misunderstanding of what goes into creating a world-class API.