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The first wave of BYD cars in Europe are not competitive yet. The price difference is small, they are less efficient and they have other issues (space optimizat

The first wave of BYD cars in Europe are not competitive yet. The price difference is small, they are less efficient and they have other issues (space optimization, driving comfort, etc) But in only one year they already started to fix all this. They are getting cheaper, correcting mistakes and opening factories in the EU. Old makers announce a car and need 2-3 years or more to have it in the market. The Chinese brands seem to need less than a year. There will be blood.

spaniard89277 3y ago
IDK in the rest of Europe, but in Spain there's a growing resentment against euro auto makers as there's a perceived unfair price increase with lots of quality issues and bad customer-facing practices. Also, everyone is aware they are lobbying the EU for keeping competitors out. IMO they are building reputational damage and it will last. People is going through hardship and what they see is companies trying to squeeze them and taking advantage. Every new YT reviewing a car has at least ~5 most upvoted comments complaining about this issues, over and over again, and this has been going for a while. Same in forums and social media.
- exceptione 3y ago
  As I commented somewhere else, Chinese EV makers are state enterprises that dump their production at a loss on the European market. Cars have become expensive, but their baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) has increased a lot too. This is true for all cars, European or not. Cheap Asian brands have also become more expensive or went away as they cannot meet safety regulations.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    This one is supposed to be sold at a profit, according to the OP.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > dump their production at a loss on the European market. How much money are they losing? How can they afford to do that? How long can they keep that up? China’s overall BEV exports rose 70 percent in 2023, reaching $34.1 billion. The European Union (EU) is the largest recipient of Chinese BEV exports, accounting for nearly 40 percent of them. Other European countries (Albania, European Free Trade Association members, North Macedonia, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom) held a 15 percent share of Chinese shipments in the same year. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-has-become-an-electric-vehicle-export-behemoth-how-should-the-us-and-eu-respond/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-...
    - exceptione 3y ago
      How much depends on bookkeeping, but for the NIO it was $35000 __per car__ last year. So that gives you an idea of the investment involved. How long can they afford that: China has a big trade surplus, high youth unemployment, low domestic demand and no accountable leadership. So: very long.
      - dogma1138 3y ago
        Does VW loose $35,000 per car considering they are selling the ID.3 in China for as low as $16,000 whilst it starts at €40,000 in Europe?
        exceptione 3y ago
        This is a bit of a non sequitur, but ok, VW in China is built by the Chinese SAIC. The 16K price was a temporary sale price. In Europe this model of VW is imho over priced indeed, and price sensitive people should buy Korean/Japanese cars anyways. Aside, what most people seem to miss is that the model mentioned in the article is not for sale in Europe and likely will not be (rumours because it does not meet safety criteria). Its bigger brother is, but that one is also a lot more expensive.
        dogma1138 3y ago
  - spaniard89277 3y ago
    We dump a lot of subsidies on our factories too. But in the end it doesn't matter, because most people remember that a few years ago you were able to buy chap cars <10k. That mean that modal incomes could afford to have a car. Now 10k is the price of a second-hand car with lots of potential issues. It got to a point that there are companies that offer pericial services with a guy who goes to review the car with an ODB reader and everything. That wasn't happening here. But it isn't only the cheap market. Premium brands are pushing a lot of BS and people is taking notice. You can't squeeze people indefinitely without no repercussion. It's just impossible.
    - bonzini 3y ago
      The last car I bought for 10k€ (not less than, in fact it was probably closer to 11) was a Chevrolet Spark in 2011. I remember that for 9k€ you could buy a Hyundai that didn't even have electric windows, but everything else was above 10k€. Last year, with subsidies I replaced it with an electric Dacia Spring for 16k€. It is much better than the old one (slightly larger, obviously more silent, less TCO since I charge it at home) and yes, it was subsidized by the state, but a similar ICE car could be bought new for the same price and it would also be better than the 2011 car. It sums up to +25% in 12 years for a better product, which is not a lot.
  - varispeed 3y ago
    Given that the China is an adversary, accepting their car in the market en masse doesn't sound good from the EU security perspective. If the cars have remote kills switch or something similar, in the event of Chinese-Russian invasion, they could easily disable all transport and prevent people from leaving to safety or cause other troubles. I view Chinese expansion in that sector as a Trojan horse. Mind you that maybe the "company" (Chinese "companies" are not the same thing as we know in the West - these are more like government departments) has good intentions, but when the time comes, the party can order them to do whatever they need to be done.
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      > in the event of Chinese-Russian invasion The concern is a bit silly. You realize that while most of us are dying from starvation and radiation piosoning, the car working or not is like not even a concern. Meanwhile, I rather drive whatever car I like, including Chinese ones. Especially cars witch the government think should not spy on me since they don't feel they control it.
      - varispeed 3y ago
        I remember people saying that the concept of full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine was silly. I think you are underestimating dictators in their 70s with nothing to lose, power of propaganda and the fact that when there is war, there is opportunity to make fortunes.
        asadotzler 3y ago
        Astute observers will note that China did not in fact invade Ukraine
        varispeed 3y ago
        The point was to counter the idea that country invading another country in this day and age is silly.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    > baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) 10 inch touch screens are not a luxury, but a death trap... navigation is useless compared to say, waze glass roofs only reduce your range by increasing a/c consumption etc etc most of those luxuries can -ck off for all i care
  - julienfr112 3y ago
    "at a loss" can be very different depending on : - is it pure marginal cost ? - do you include a part of R&D cost ? - do you factor large capex (factory, stamping press, and silicon fab in related industries ) - how do you compute depreciation ? When you see the gap between accounting in the West and "accounting" in China, "at a loss" has no meaning at all.
    - exceptione 3y ago
      At a loss as in: several big EV-manufacturers went totally bankrupt, but the PRC revived them from dead by pouring billions in them.
v4dok 3y ago
I'm looking to get a car these days in EU. The government gives out subsidy for electric cars and even without it, there is simply nothing almost as good in Teslas range. EU makers are either too expensive or try to sell you shit for gold
cheradenine_uk 3y ago
Same pattern as when Japanese auto manufacturers first entered US/EU markets. They were initially a joke. Now: not so much.

spaniard89277 3y ago

IDK in the rest of Europe, but in Spain there's a growing resentment against euro auto makers as there's a perceived unfair price increase with lots of quality issues and bad customer-facing practices. Also, everyone is aware they are lobbying the EU for keeping competitors out. IMO they are building reputational damage and it will last. People is going through hardship and what they see is companies trying to squeeze them and taking advantage. Every new YT reviewing a car has at least ~5 most upvoted comments complaining about this issues, over and over again, and this has been going for a while. Same in forums and social media.

exceptione 3y ago
As I commented somewhere else, Chinese EV makers are state enterprises that dump their production at a loss on the European market. Cars have become expensive, but their baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) has increased a lot too. This is true for all cars, European or not. Cheap Asian brands have also become more expensive or went away as they cannot meet safety regulations.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  This one is supposed to be sold at a profit, according to the OP.
- defrost 3y ago
  > dump their production at a loss on the European market. How much money are they losing? How can they afford to do that? How long can they keep that up? China’s overall BEV exports rose 70 percent in 2023, reaching $34.1 billion. The European Union (EU) is the largest recipient of Chinese BEV exports, accounting for nearly 40 percent of them. Other European countries (Albania, European Free Trade Association members, North Macedonia, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom) held a 15 percent share of Chinese shipments in the same year. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-has-become-an-electric-vehicle-export-behemoth-how-should-the-us-and-eu-respond/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-...
  - exceptione 3y ago
    How much depends on bookkeeping, but for the NIO it was $35000 __per car__ last year. So that gives you an idea of the investment involved. How long can they afford that: China has a big trade surplus, high youth unemployment, low domestic demand and no accountable leadership. So: very long.
    - dogma1138 3y ago
      Does VW loose $35,000 per car considering they are selling the ID.3 in China for as low as $16,000 whilst it starts at €40,000 in Europe?
      - exceptione 3y ago
        This is a bit of a non sequitur, but ok, VW in China is built by the Chinese SAIC. The 16K price was a temporary sale price. In Europe this model of VW is imho over priced indeed, and price sensitive people should buy Korean/Japanese cars anyways. Aside, what most people seem to miss is that the model mentioned in the article is not for sale in Europe and likely will not be (rumours because it does not meet safety criteria). Its bigger brother is, but that one is also a lot more expensive.
        dogma1138 3y ago
- spaniard89277 3y ago
  We dump a lot of subsidies on our factories too. But in the end it doesn't matter, because most people remember that a few years ago you were able to buy chap cars <10k. That mean that modal incomes could afford to have a car. Now 10k is the price of a second-hand car with lots of potential issues. It got to a point that there are companies that offer pericial services with a guy who goes to review the car with an ODB reader and everything. That wasn't happening here. But it isn't only the cheap market. Premium brands are pushing a lot of BS and people is taking notice. You can't squeeze people indefinitely without no repercussion. It's just impossible.
  - bonzini 3y ago
    The last car I bought for 10k€ (not less than, in fact it was probably closer to 11) was a Chevrolet Spark in 2011. I remember that for 9k€ you could buy a Hyundai that didn't even have electric windows, but everything else was above 10k€. Last year, with subsidies I replaced it with an electric Dacia Spring for 16k€. It is much better than the old one (slightly larger, obviously more silent, less TCO since I charge it at home) and yes, it was subsidized by the state, but a similar ICE car could be bought new for the same price and it would also be better than the 2011 car. It sums up to +25% in 12 years for a better product, which is not a lot.
- varispeed 3y ago
  Given that the China is an adversary, accepting their car in the market en masse doesn't sound good from the EU security perspective. If the cars have remote kills switch or something similar, in the event of Chinese-Russian invasion, they could easily disable all transport and prevent people from leaving to safety or cause other troubles. I view Chinese expansion in that sector as a Trojan horse. Mind you that maybe the "company" (Chinese "companies" are not the same thing as we know in the West - these are more like government departments) has good intentions, but when the time comes, the party can order them to do whatever they need to be done.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    > in the event of Chinese-Russian invasion The concern is a bit silly. You realize that while most of us are dying from starvation and radiation piosoning, the car working or not is like not even a concern. Meanwhile, I rather drive whatever car I like, including Chinese ones. Especially cars witch the government think should not spy on me since they don't feel they control it.
    - varispeed 3y ago
      I remember people saying that the concept of full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine was silly. I think you are underestimating dictators in their 70s with nothing to lose, power of propaganda and the fact that when there is war, there is opportunity to make fortunes.
      - asadotzler 3y ago
        Astute observers will note that China did not in fact invade Ukraine
        varispeed 3y ago
        The point was to counter the idea that country invading another country in this day and age is silly.
- nottorp 3y ago
  > baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) 10 inch touch screens are not a luxury, but a death trap... navigation is useless compared to say, waze glass roofs only reduce your range by increasing a/c consumption etc etc most of those luxuries can -ck off for all i care
- julienfr112 3y ago
  "at a loss" can be very different depending on : - is it pure marginal cost ? - do you include a part of R&D cost ? - do you factor large capex (factory, stamping press, and silicon fab in related industries ) - how do you compute depreciation ? When you see the gap between accounting in the West and "accounting" in China, "at a loss" has no meaning at all.
  - exceptione 3y ago
    At a loss as in: several big EV-manufacturers went totally bankrupt, but the PRC revived them from dead by pouring billions in them.

v4dok 3y ago

I'm looking to get a car these days in EU. The government gives out subsidy for electric cars and even without it, there is simply nothing almost as good in Teslas range. EU makers are either too expensive or try to sell you shit for gold

cheradenine_uk 3y ago

Same pattern as when Japanese auto manufacturers first entered US/EU markets. They were initially a joke. Now: not so much.