6 ms·

BYD's new EV, starting under $10K, is stoking fear among rivals

49 points by redbell 3y ago

popcalc 3y ago
Maybe also in local firefighters.
moltar 3y ago
Chinese cars are already on European (Portugal) streets. The automaker war is lost imo. Once they are in the south of the EU (low purchasing power market) it will just spread from there. I got rides in a couple of makers in a taxi. To be honest as a passenger the experience was good. Better than some French brands.
- amarcheschi 3y ago
  As of a few days ago, i read some chinese car company was looking into producing their cars in one of the Stellantis plants in northern italy. It is quite ironic that european automakers first moved production in 3rd world countries to minimize the cost of production, and now some of the new automakers in similar countries come here to look for plants where to assembly their cars
- exceptione 3y ago
  Buyers need to factor in the chance that their car becomes worthless when China starts a war to conquest Taiwan, as that might prompt for accelerated decoupling and sanctions, leaving owners of Chinese cars on a dead end. Reminder that Chinese EV Manufacturers are in the end state enterprises operating at a loss, so this is not sustainable long term. As internal consumption is very weak in China, all that production needs to be exported or you are looking at the notorious EV graveyards. This practice is a sure way to suffocate European car makers, so you can totally expect tariffs somewhere in the future.
  - avidphantasm 3y ago
    China won’t start a war in Taiwan. Look what they are doing in Hong Kong. China is patient. They will slowly bring Taiwan back into the fold without killing the golden goose.
    - summner 3y ago
      China is ruled by an autocrat who only listens to his yes men. This is a very suboptimal solution, to say the least. Every year this will become worse and worse as the autocrat gets more and more addicted to his own copium. This is how it always happened in the past everywhere in the world, this is what is already happening there.
    - quantum_state 3y ago
      I would think the ppl in the region are not stupid enough to make their homeland a weapon testing ground like many other places … we all know the ongoing Ukraine situation…
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    Supposed to be making a profit on each one. According to OP.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    It’s amusing how much FUD there is about China and Taiwan. Maybe there will be a war, maybe not. Why say “when”, when it’s “if?”
  - nottorp 3y ago
    > Buyers need to factor in the chance that their car becomes worthless when China starts a war to conquest Taiwan, as that might prompt for accelerated decoupling and sanctions, leaving owners of Chinese cars on a dead end. Worthless how? Cars aren't phones yet. You still own them even if you can't contact the manufacturer any more.
user568439 3y ago
The first wave of BYD cars in Europe are not competitive yet. The price difference is small, they are less efficient and they have other issues (space optimization, driving comfort, etc) But in only one year they already started to fix all this. They are getting cheaper, correcting mistakes and opening factories in the EU. Old makers announce a car and need 2-3 years or more to have it in the market. The Chinese brands seem to need less than a year. There will be blood.
- spaniard89277 3y ago
  IDK in the rest of Europe, but in Spain there's a growing resentment against euro auto makers as there's a perceived unfair price increase with lots of quality issues and bad customer-facing practices. Also, everyone is aware they are lobbying the EU for keeping competitors out. IMO they are building reputational damage and it will last. People is going through hardship and what they see is companies trying to squeeze them and taking advantage. Every new YT reviewing a car has at least ~5 most upvoted comments complaining about this issues, over and over again, and this has been going for a while. Same in forums and social media.
  - exceptione 3y ago
    As I commented somewhere else, Chinese EV makers are state enterprises that dump their production at a loss on the European market. Cars have become expensive, but their baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) has increased a lot too. This is true for all cars, European or not. Cheap Asian brands have also become more expensive or went away as they cannot meet safety regulations.
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      This one is supposed to be sold at a profit, according to the OP.
    - defrost 3y ago
      > dump their production at a loss on the European market. How much money are they losing? How can they afford to do that? How long can they keep that up? China’s overall BEV exports rose 70 percent in 2023, reaching $34.1 billion. The European Union (EU) is the largest recipient of Chinese BEV exports, accounting for nearly 40 percent of them. Other European countries (Albania, European Free Trade Association members, North Macedonia, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom) held a 15 percent share of Chinese shipments in the same year. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-has-become-an-electric-vehicle-export-behemoth-how-should-the-us-and-eu-respond/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-...
rightbyte 3y ago
Most automakers seem to want to be banks renting out way too expensive cars for the customers budget. That segmemt is way too crowded with higher rates. BYD seems very interesting. I would need a small commute EV. Have anyome tried this model?
saos 3y ago
Really good! Will only push EV prices down. This is what healthy competition does l!
mcraiha 3y ago
BYD's quality control is really bad. They sold AWD that did not work as AWD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eENx7rscQ80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eENx7rscQ80
- bovermyer 3y ago
  There's still a market for questionable but cheap vehicles. In the USA, there just... isn't an option for that. Even used cars are hard to find cheap now.
ryandrake 3y ago
I'd love to see them pull this off in the USA. The cheapest new EV is what, still the Bolt EV at ~$30K? Ridiculous. We need something to provide downward pressure on prices. If they could actually sell it for $10K in the USA, it would be cheaper than even the cheapest gas cars. DO IT!
- zikduruqe 3y ago
  What I would love to buy is something between a street legal golf cart and a Nissan Leaf. I only need about 50 miles range and to protect me from the elements. I have a bicycle for some tasks, an ICE vehicle for longer hauls, but would love something to fill in the need for in town errands.
  - UglyToad 3y ago
    Sounds sort of like the Citroen Ami? Slightly below your ideal range and quite expensive too but the same concept.
  - SkyPuncher 3y ago
    GEM makes something that fits your bill. In my state, they can be driven on roads that are 35 mph or less. That’s sufficient for many urban areas.
  - silverquiet 3y ago
    The Aptera looks interesting for that sort of space. You might be able to option it with the lowest battery if you don't care about range and with the largest solar panel option and perhaps never/rarely even need to plug it in. Of course, they have to actually make it to serial production first, but it's a really neat concept if you value efficiency in your transportation.
    - zikduruqe 3y ago
      Now that is exactly what I am looking for. I picked all the lowest options, and it comes to $26,000. I'll definitely keep an eye on this company.
throwaway63467 3y ago
Good. I haven’t owned a car in more than 10 years but I’m in the market for one, and European / US electric vehicles seem like scams to me. Very poor range and luxury pricing for middle class cars. VW Buzz is a good example, almost 60T€ base price, 400 km range (much less on the highway) and things that should be standard in 2024 need to be purchased as expensive extras for several thousands of euros. Even most new gasoline cars seem to be rip offs, the new Skoda Superb is almost 6T € more expensive than the previous model in the base configuration. It’s just rent seeking at this point, and these companies already bring the lobbyists into position to delay the transition to electric vehicles and keep foreign competitors out of the market.
- llamaimperative 3y ago
  Perhaps cars actually cost closer to what American and European manufacturers sell them for, and the communist state-backed BYD is the rent-seeking scam that’s dumping vehicles below cost in order to achieve not-quite-commercial objectives.
  - throwaway63467 3y ago
    It’s a bit funny though that after the subsidies were reduced all car manufacturers reduced prices of electric vehicles accordingly, hints at the fact that they’re still turning a nice profit with them. Volkswagen quadrupled their earnings in one year, many other car brands had similar increases. It’s not a cost issue.
  - jpgvm 3y ago
    I don't think so. Most government purchase subsidies are or were phased out in China in 2022. BYD received massive grants during it's scale-up period, mostly in the form of capital expenditures being fully subsidized or land grants. Very rarely were subsidies/grants awarded for operational expenses though it did happen. Given the fiscal situation in China it's unlikely BYD will receive as much support in the future but you never know. Green transition is still a massively important political goal in China. Worth mentioning the scale of support it received is not dissimilar to Tesla which also benefited from very healthy subsidies and tax arrangements with the US jurisdictions it setup in. In fact if you include their $1.3B deal with Nevada (over 20 years though) I think you will find Tesla is in the lead in government money. Disclaimer: I'm both a BYD and TSLA shareholder
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
agumonkey 3y ago
Good news, especially after this report seems to hint at underestimated levels of CO2 emissions on ICE and hybrids https://climate.ec.europa.eu/news-your-voice/news/first-commission-report-real-world-co2-emissions-cars-and-vans-using-data-board-fuel-consumption-2024-03-18_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/news-your-voice/news/first-comm...
hiyer 3y ago
I hope they will launch this in India soon. Seems like a no-brainer for india's price conscious market.
raphar 3y ago
The article says that they launched the car in Brazil and it is available for 20000 [0]. Very cheap for the region. Has any of our readers there put their hands on one of these? Please share! [0] https://electrek.co/2024/02/13/byd-launches-cheapest-ev-south-america-20k/ https://electrek.co/2024/02/13/byd-launches-cheapest-ev-sout...
Gud 3y ago
An ultimate economy box like this is great. But I would like to take it one step further and have them parked here and there for use with an app or something. Volvo has something similar to what I describe with Volvo On Demand. https://www.volvocars.com/en-se/on-demand https://www.volvocars.com/en-se/on-demand I tried using it in Stockholm, but it wouldn't let me because I am no longer a resident there. Still, the idea is great I think especially with cheap boxes like this.
- dogma1138 3y ago
  Ah yes the great future of owning nothing and paying for everything.
  - Gud 3y ago
    ? I don’t WANT a car and the inconveniences it brings. I would much rather spend my money on something else. I very much prefer going by tram/train 95%+ of my trips. However, sometimes a neighbourhood car would be very convenient.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    No-one's suggesting buying cars should be _banned_. But, clearly, many people don't need or want (or in many cases have room for) a full-time car; these sort of services are useful for that case.
tibbydudeza 3y ago
VW ID.1 is only going to be released in 2027 ... dead man walking.

49 points by redbell 3y ago

Maybe also in local firefighters.

Chinese cars are already on European (Portugal) streets. The automaker war is lost imo. Once they are in the south of the EU (low purchasing power market) it will just spread from there. I got rides in a couple of makers in a taxi. To be honest as a passenger the experience was good. Better than some French brands.

amarcheschi 3y ago
As of a few days ago, i read some chinese car company was looking into producing their cars in one of the Stellantis plants in northern italy. It is quite ironic that european automakers first moved production in 3rd world countries to minimize the cost of production, and now some of the new automakers in similar countries come here to look for plants where to assembly their cars
exceptione 3y ago
Buyers need to factor in the chance that their car becomes worthless when China starts a war to conquest Taiwan, as that might prompt for accelerated decoupling and sanctions, leaving owners of Chinese cars on a dead end. Reminder that Chinese EV Manufacturers are in the end state enterprises operating at a loss, so this is not sustainable long term. As internal consumption is very weak in China, all that production needs to be exported or you are looking at the notorious EV graveyards. This practice is a sure way to suffocate European car makers, so you can totally expect tariffs somewhere in the future.
- avidphantasm 3y ago
  China won’t start a war in Taiwan. Look what they are doing in Hong Kong. China is patient. They will slowly bring Taiwan back into the fold without killing the golden goose.
  - summner 3y ago
    China is ruled by an autocrat who only listens to his yes men. This is a very suboptimal solution, to say the least. Every year this will become worse and worse as the autocrat gets more and more addicted to his own copium. This is how it always happened in the past everywhere in the world, this is what is already happening there.
  - quantum_state 3y ago
    I would think the ppl in the region are not stupid enough to make their homeland a weapon testing ground like many other places … we all know the ongoing Ukraine situation…
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Supposed to be making a profit on each one. According to OP.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  It’s amusing how much FUD there is about China and Taiwan. Maybe there will be a war, maybe not. Why say “when”, when it’s “if?”
- nottorp 3y ago
  > Buyers need to factor in the chance that their car becomes worthless when China starts a war to conquest Taiwan, as that might prompt for accelerated decoupling and sanctions, leaving owners of Chinese cars on a dead end. Worthless how? Cars aren't phones yet. You still own them even if you can't contact the manufacturer any more.

user568439 3y ago

The first wave of BYD cars in Europe are not competitive yet. The price difference is small, they are less efficient and they have other issues (space optimization, driving comfort, etc) But in only one year they already started to fix all this. They are getting cheaper, correcting mistakes and opening factories in the EU. Old makers announce a car and need 2-3 years or more to have it in the market. The Chinese brands seem to need less than a year. There will be blood.

spaniard89277 3y ago
IDK in the rest of Europe, but in Spain there's a growing resentment against euro auto makers as there's a perceived unfair price increase with lots of quality issues and bad customer-facing practices. Also, everyone is aware they are lobbying the EU for keeping competitors out. IMO they are building reputational damage and it will last. People is going through hardship and what they see is companies trying to squeeze them and taking advantage. Every new YT reviewing a car has at least ~5 most upvoted comments complaining about this issues, over and over again, and this has been going for a while. Same in forums and social media.
- exceptione 3y ago
  As I commented somewhere else, Chinese EV makers are state enterprises that dump their production at a loss on the European market. Cars have become expensive, but their baseline in safety requirements (and luxury) has increased a lot too. This is true for all cars, European or not. Cheap Asian brands have also become more expensive or went away as they cannot meet safety regulations.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    This one is supposed to be sold at a profit, according to the OP.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > dump their production at a loss on the European market. How much money are they losing? How can they afford to do that? How long can they keep that up? China’s overall BEV exports rose 70 percent in 2023, reaching $34.1 billion. The European Union (EU) is the largest recipient of Chinese BEV exports, accounting for nearly 40 percent of them. Other European countries (Albania, European Free Trade Association members, North Macedonia, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom) held a 15 percent share of Chinese shipments in the same year. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-has-become-an-electric-vehicle-export-behemoth-how-should-the-us-and-eu-respond/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/china-...

rightbyte 3y ago

Most automakers seem to want to be banks renting out way too expensive cars for the customers budget. That segmemt is way too crowded with higher rates. BYD seems very interesting. I would need a small commute EV. Have anyome tried this model?

saos 3y ago

Really good! Will only push EV prices down. This is what healthy competition does l!

mcraiha 3y ago

BYD's quality control is really bad. They sold AWD that did not work as AWD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eENx7rscQ80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eENx7rscQ80

bovermyer 3y ago
There's still a market for questionable but cheap vehicles. In the USA, there just... isn't an option for that. Even used cars are hard to find cheap now.

ryandrake 3y ago

I'd love to see them pull this off in the USA. The cheapest new EV is what, still the Bolt EV at ~$30K? Ridiculous. We need something to provide downward pressure on prices. If they could actually sell it for $10K in the USA, it would be cheaper than even the cheapest gas cars. DO IT!

zikduruqe 3y ago
What I would love to buy is something between a street legal golf cart and a Nissan Leaf. I only need about 50 miles range and to protect me from the elements. I have a bicycle for some tasks, an ICE vehicle for longer hauls, but would love something to fill in the need for in town errands.
- UglyToad 3y ago
  Sounds sort of like the Citroen Ami? Slightly below your ideal range and quite expensive too but the same concept.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  GEM makes something that fits your bill. In my state, they can be driven on roads that are 35 mph or less. That’s sufficient for many urban areas.
- silverquiet 3y ago
  The Aptera looks interesting for that sort of space. You might be able to option it with the lowest battery if you don't care about range and with the largest solar panel option and perhaps never/rarely even need to plug it in. Of course, they have to actually make it to serial production first, but it's a really neat concept if you value efficiency in your transportation.
  - zikduruqe 3y ago
    Now that is exactly what I am looking for. I picked all the lowest options, and it comes to $26,000. I'll definitely keep an eye on this company.

throwaway63467 3y ago

Good. I haven’t owned a car in more than 10 years but I’m in the market for one, and European / US electric vehicles seem like scams to me. Very poor range and luxury pricing for middle class cars. VW Buzz is a good example, almost 60T€ base price, 400 km range (much less on the highway) and things that should be standard in 2024 need to be purchased as expensive extras for several thousands of euros. Even most new gasoline cars seem to be rip offs, the new Skoda Superb is almost 6T € more expensive than the previous model in the base configuration. It’s just rent seeking at this point, and these companies already bring the lobbyists into position to delay the transition to electric vehicles and keep foreign competitors out of the market.

llamaimperative 3y ago
Perhaps cars actually cost closer to what American and European manufacturers sell them for, and the communist state-backed BYD is the rent-seeking scam that’s dumping vehicles below cost in order to achieve not-quite-commercial objectives.
- throwaway63467 3y ago
  It’s a bit funny though that after the subsidies were reduced all car manufacturers reduced prices of electric vehicles accordingly, hints at the fact that they’re still turning a nice profit with them. Volkswagen quadrupled their earnings in one year, many other car brands had similar increases. It’s not a cost issue.
- jpgvm 3y ago
  I don't think so. Most government purchase subsidies are or were phased out in China in 2022. BYD received massive grants during it's scale-up period, mostly in the form of capital expenditures being fully subsidized or land grants. Very rarely were subsidies/grants awarded for operational expenses though it did happen. Given the fiscal situation in China it's unlikely BYD will receive as much support in the future but you never know. Green transition is still a massively important political goal in China. Worth mentioning the scale of support it received is not dissimilar to Tesla which also benefited from very healthy subsidies and tax arrangements with the US jurisdictions it setup in. In fact if you include their $1.3B deal with Nevada (over 20 years though) I think you will find Tesla is in the lead in government money. Disclaimer: I'm both a BYD and TSLA shareholder

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

agumonkey 3y ago

Good news, especially after this report seems to hint at underestimated levels of CO2 emissions on ICE and hybrids https://climate.ec.europa.eu/news-your-voice/news/first-commission-report-real-world-co2-emissions-cars-and-vans-using-data-board-fuel-consumption-2024-03-18_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/news-your-voice/news/first-comm...

hiyer 3y ago

I hope they will launch this in India soon. Seems like a no-brainer for india's price conscious market.

raphar 3y ago

The article says that they launched the car in Brazil and it is available for 20000 [0]. Very cheap for the region. Has any of our readers there put their hands on one of these? Please share! [0] https://electrek.co/2024/02/13/byd-launches-cheapest-ev-south-america-20k/ https://electrek.co/2024/02/13/byd-launches-cheapest-ev-sout...

Gud 3y ago

An ultimate economy box like this is great. But I would like to take it one step further and have them parked here and there for use with an app or something. Volvo has something similar to what I describe with Volvo On Demand. https://www.volvocars.com/en-se/on-demand https://www.volvocars.com/en-se/on-demand I tried using it in Stockholm, but it wouldn't let me because I am no longer a resident there. Still, the idea is great I think especially with cheap boxes like this.

dogma1138 3y ago
Ah yes the great future of owning nothing and paying for everything.
- Gud 3y ago
  ? I don’t WANT a car and the inconveniences it brings. I would much rather spend my money on something else. I very much prefer going by tram/train 95%+ of my trips. However, sometimes a neighbourhood car would be very convenient.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  No-one's suggesting buying cars should be _banned_. But, clearly, many people don't need or want (or in many cases have room for) a full-time car; these sort of services are useful for that case.

tibbydudeza 3y ago

VW ID.1 is only going to be released in 2027 ... dead man walking.