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How does feature size and scaling of memory compare with logic? It looks like leading edge memory is made by three companies - Samsung, Hynix and Micron - no TS

How does feature size and scaling of memory compare with logic? It looks like leading edge memory is made by three companies - Samsung, Hynix and Micron - no TSMC. Do they use EUV? Do they use ASML machines?

wmf 3y ago
It's hard to tell because DRAM vendors talk about things like "1x nm" or "1a nm" but it sounds like they are still above 10 nm which is fairly far behind logic processes. DRAM typically sells for much cheaper than logic so they may not be able to invest as much as TSMC.
wtallis 3y ago
Yes, they're adopting EUV for DRAM processes: https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-announces-industrys-first-euv-dram-with-shipment-of-first-million-modules/ https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-a... https://www.anandtech.com/show/18866/micron-to-bring-euv-to-japan-1-gamma-dram-to-be-made-in-hiroshima-in-2025 https://www.anandtech.com/show/18866/micron-to-bring-euv-to-...
boojums 3y ago
DRAM/NAND processes are optimized for different things than logic, so there isn't much cross application. My understanding is that it would be hard to make a general compute chip with a DRAM process due to a low number of metal layers, transistor types, etc. Micron [1] and Samsung have both investigated doing massively parallel compute in the memory cell, but the technology never panned out. Regarding EUV, according to Micron's most recent quarterly report (March 20th) [2] "We continue to mature our production capability with extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV), and have achieved equivalent yield and quality on our 1α as well as 1ß nodes between EUV and non-EUV flows. We have begun 1γ (1-gamma) DRAM pilot production using EUV and are on track for volume production in calendar 2025." [1] https://investors.micron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/micron-announces-development-new-parallel-processing?modal=%7B5DDF970E-B79E-4DCD-8097-12E81AC9CFF8%7D https://investors.micron.com/news-releases/news-release-deta... [2] https://investors.micron.com/static-files/1a8d6c22-3b89-4806-930c-d30cbcd270d5 https://investors.micron.com/static-files/1a8d6c22-3b89-4806...
- samcheng 3y ago
  What about Apple's M-series chips, which have on-die RAM? Is that RAM significantly more expensive per GB due to the more expensive process? (It's certainly exorbitantly expensive for retail consumers at $200 for an 8 GB RAM upgrade on a Macbook!)
  - wmf 3y ago
    Apple does not have on-die RAM. The SoC is a normal logic die and the RAM is regular DRAM.
    - samcheng 3y ago
      Ah - I see, the DRAM is literally BGA'd right next to the die. So that $200 upcharge is mostly profit... Thank you!
      - vbezhenar 3y ago
        It's called "package on package". The RAM is different chip, however it's located very close to the CPU chip and both are under a single cover. The end result is a "package". I think that GPUs use similar approach.
        RF_Savage 3y ago
        AMD Vega used HBM next to the GPU die, but most GPU manufacturers are now back to discrete chips on the GPU circuit board.

wmf 3y ago

It's hard to tell because DRAM vendors talk about things like "1x nm" or "1a nm" but it sounds like they are still above 10 nm which is fairly far behind logic processes. DRAM typically sells for much cheaper than logic so they may not be able to invest as much as TSMC.

wtallis 3y ago

Yes, they're adopting EUV for DRAM processes: https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-announces-industrys-first-euv-dram-with-shipment-of-first-million-modules/ https://semiconductor.samsung.com/news-events/news/samsung-a... https://www.anandtech.com/show/18866/micron-to-bring-euv-to-japan-1-gamma-dram-to-be-made-in-hiroshima-in-2025 https://www.anandtech.com/show/18866/micron-to-bring-euv-to-...

boojums 3y ago

DRAM/NAND processes are optimized for different things than logic, so there isn't much cross application. My understanding is that it would be hard to make a general compute chip with a DRAM process due to a low number of metal layers, transistor types, etc. Micron [1] and Samsung have both investigated doing massively parallel compute in the memory cell, but the technology never panned out. Regarding EUV, according to Micron's most recent quarterly report (March 20th) [2] "We continue to mature our production capability with extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV), and have achieved equivalent yield and quality on our 1α as well as 1ß nodes between EUV and non-EUV flows. We have begun 1γ (1-gamma) DRAM pilot production using EUV and are on track for volume production in calendar 2025." [1] https://investors.micron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/micron-announces-development-new-parallel-processing?modal=%7B5DDF970E-B79E-4DCD-8097-12E81AC9CFF8%7D https://investors.micron.com/news-releases/news-release-deta... [2] https://investors.micron.com/static-files/1a8d6c22-3b89-4806-930c-d30cbcd270d5 https://investors.micron.com/static-files/1a8d6c22-3b89-4806...

samcheng 3y ago
What about Apple's M-series chips, which have on-die RAM? Is that RAM significantly more expensive per GB due to the more expensive process? (It's certainly exorbitantly expensive for retail consumers at $200 for an 8 GB RAM upgrade on a Macbook!)
- wmf 3y ago
  Apple does not have on-die RAM. The SoC is a normal logic die and the RAM is regular DRAM.
  - samcheng 3y ago
    Ah - I see, the DRAM is literally BGA'd right next to the die. So that $200 upcharge is mostly profit... Thank you!
    - vbezhenar 3y ago
      It's called "package on package". The RAM is different chip, however it's located very close to the CPU chip and both are under a single cover. The end result is a "package". I think that GPUs use similar approach.
      - RF_Savage 3y ago
        AMD Vega used HBM next to the GPU die, but most GPU manufacturers are now back to discrete chips on the GPU circuit board.