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Disclosure: I'm a former Christian, now an atheist. It's true that the people discussed in Hebrews 11 were said to have met and spoken with God. But, unless I'

Disclosure: I'm a former Christian, now an atheist. It's true that the people discussed in Hebrews 11 were said to have met and spoken with God. But, unless I'm missing something, the chapter still seems to say that present-day believers must have faith in a God they've never seen; verse 6 says that anyone who comes to God must believe that he exists, which to me implies that they haven't met him as the early believers did. So this still seems to require some kind of leap of faith, beyond the evidence available to us today. I'll leave it at that, since we clearly disagree.

roca 3y ago
Disclosure: I'm a former agnostic, now Christian. A person could have a well-founded belief in God without seeing him as Abraham did. What if someone in the early church had seen apostolic miracles and talked to an eyewitness of the resurrected Jesus? Would it still be a "leap of faith" for them to believe in God and his promises? I would say not. So I don't think verse 6 "requires some kind of leap of faith" in the sense you're using it. I think such a person would still need faith, per verse 6, to put their justified belief into action in critical moments, e.g. at a moment when they're facing persecution for following Jesus. Now, how much of a "leap of faith" is required given the evidence really available to believers then and now... that's the big question about which we presumably disagree.
- mwcampbell 3y ago
  Yes, I don't think there's any real evidence. I'm curious about what persuaded you to become a Christian.
- rhelz 3y ago
  > What if someone in the early church had seen apostolic miracles and talked to an eyewitness of the resurrected Jesus? If you saw somebody walking around healing people, and he claimed that all known religions were false, and you should start worshiping this new god, would you do it? Or would you just think this has to be some kind of magic trick/scam?

roca 3y ago

Disclosure: I'm a former agnostic, now Christian. A person could have a well-founded belief in God without seeing him as Abraham did. What if someone in the early church had seen apostolic miracles and talked to an eyewitness of the resurrected Jesus? Would it still be a "leap of faith" for them to believe in God and his promises? I would say not. So I don't think verse 6 "requires some kind of leap of faith" in the sense you're using it. I think such a person would still need faith, per verse 6, to put their justified belief into action in critical moments, e.g. at a moment when they're facing persecution for following Jesus. Now, how much of a "leap of faith" is required given the evidence really available to believers then and now... that's the big question about which we presumably disagree.

mwcampbell 3y ago
Yes, I don't think there's any real evidence. I'm curious about what persuaded you to become a Christian.
rhelz 3y ago
> What if someone in the early church had seen apostolic miracles and talked to an eyewitness of the resurrected Jesus? If you saw somebody walking around healing people, and he claimed that all known religions were false, and you should start worshiping this new god, would you do it? Or would you just think this has to be some kind of magic trick/scam?