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I don't believe leading economists didn't see this coming. Even if they didn't originally, it's been clear now, for decades. This is the system working as inte

I don't believe leading economists didn't see this coming. Even if they didn't originally, it's been clear now, for decades. This is the system working as intended, making government spending easy and gradually worsening poor's people lives.

theteapot 3y ago
Pretty sure they have a steady poor people target rate as well (unemployment rate roughly) so no need to worry.
cjbgkagh 3y ago
One neat feature of ignorance is the ability to hold incorrect ideas with sincerity, I not only think economists are generally wrong, but the most dim amongst them are the most likely to be promoted to prominence.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > One neat feature of ignorance is the ability to hold incorrect ideas with sincerity, I not only think economists are generally wrong, but the most dim amongst them are the most likely to be promoted to prominence. As you reject ignorance (which I applaud), what knowledge is that based on?
rootusrootus 3y ago
Are poor people's lives objectively worse now than they were, say, 40 years ago?
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  Technology and innovation has made people’s lives better at the same time that politicians and bankers have made them worse. Just because the politicians and bankers failed to totally eclipse technology does not mean they are not a severe detriment.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Technology and innovation has made people’s lives better at the same time that politicians and bankers have made them worse. That's the SV fantasy!: I'm awesome and a super-genius, everyone else is useless, dumb and annoying, and therefore I should be all-powerful!. It's like they're all still 13 year olds hacking on their computers, where they finally feel really powerful. It's almost as if they've never learned anything more about the world - humanities are just entertainment for the wealthy - leaving themselves vulnerable to the most obvious self-deception. One might say that technology and innovation have turned our world into a hellscape, with massive social and political breakdown, massive mis/disinformation, and climate change. Maybe some innovation can build us new supersonic jets, better oil extraction, more effective automated online persuasion, or some snazzy financial tech - like CDOs, crypto, and private equity. On the other hand, our political institutions did an amazing job of getting the US through a global pandemic without even a recession. There are serious problems, such as housing and education prices, but I don't think anyone could have predicted how well things went economically.
    - cjbgkagh 3y ago
      I can't tell if this is satire, either way I had a good laugh.
      - WinstonSmith84 3y ago
        Yeah, I was torn but his last paragraph is 100% satire > On the other hand, our political institutions did an amazing job of getting the US through a global pandemic without even a recession. There are serious problems, such as housing and education prices, but I don't think anyone could have predicted how well things went economically. Just wait lol ..
        FactKnower69 3y ago
        As of this week the yield curve has been inverted for a longer period than ever before in history, that's how you know the economy is healthier than ever
- pastor_bob 3y ago
  Certainly in their ability to buy homes. > Since 1963, inflation has risen 896%, while housing prices have risen by more than 2,350%. > For example, between 1984 and 2021, home prices in Massachusetts rose by 469.89% while incomes increased by 221.10%. ETC, ETC https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/correlation-inflation-houses.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/correlation-inflati...
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    Land zoned for development is the one thing you cannot produce in factories. No wonder that densely populated areas feel the shortage. Zone more land for denser development, and you will see the rents and home prices fall, or at least stagnate. That is why people started building skyscrapers immediately after reasonably developed lift technology was available.
- Jensson 3y ago
  They can objectively afford less housing, education, healthcare and such things than 40 years ago. They can afford better computers, but that is just thanks to technology, other than technology making things cheaper their lives are worse.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    "Housing" ... mostly a NIMBY problem. AKA not a small group of capitalists ruining it for everyone else, but a bunch of soccer moms who hate any densification and insist that their neighborhood must stay the same forever, weaponizing environmental laws to stop any development. Notably, cities that build nonetheless, be it Austin, TX, or Warsaw, Poland, buck this otherwise very widespread trend. "Education, healthcare" ... depends on the country involved, plus the extent of healthcare you can now get is vastly bigger due to scientific progress. Forty years ago, HIV infection was a death sentence and most cancers too.
    - FactKnower69 3y ago
      At any given time of year there are ~23 empty housing units for every single homeless person in the US, even close to 3 per homeless person in Los Angeles and New York City; somehow the constant, coordinated line of "supply constraints" and "grr NIMBYs!" doesn't hold up to the actual data
      - ianburrell 3y ago
        Vacant doesn't mean available. Apartments that are being shown to renters are vacant. Houses for sale are vacant. Houses that have sold or rented but haven't been moved into are not available. It would be impossible to house homeless in vacant houses. Sellers and landlords would never accept it because would make it hard to find people. The short-term rentals would be hard to mange, not good for the homeless to always be moving, and easily go wrong. Is the government going to compensate for damages? For delayed moving into new house? It is almost certainly cheaper to build the homeless housing.
    - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
- spaceman_2020 3y ago
  What was the middle class’ rate of home ownership then vs now?
- smegger001 3y ago
  you need to make adjustments for the question to make since, was the lowest earning quartile of the population worse off relative to the upper quartile 40 years ago verses the lower compared to the upper today.
- ejb999 3y ago
  People don't compare how well they were off 40 years ago vs today, they remember how things were in recent history - i.e. 3-4 years ago and then decide if they are better or worse off. Inflation is a killer for the poor and most of the middle class - and a boon for the wealthy (who own appreciating assets) - everyone I know who is not wealthy enough to not care, is feeling it.
- andrewmutz 3y ago
  The only way to answer this question is with data, not anecdote. And the people in this discussion thread are saying they don't trust the inflation data. I trust the data, and the data shows their lives are better. If you don't trust the data, it's impossible to know.
  - ponow 3y ago
    A read of the data shows that, but it's not the only read nor the only data. So we can say wages have increased to keep up with inflation, but left out is all the money lost during the time lag before wages caught up. And whose wages caught up? If you use average wages, then you can hide the details. You really need to look at different income levels, or at least the median wage and the inflation experienced for that median person, bare minimum.
- greedo 3y ago
  40 years ago I could work a summer job at minimum wage and earn enough to pay a full year's tuition at UCSD. Doing the same thing in 2023 paid for less than 1/3 of the tuition.
  - Aloisius 3y ago
    That has more to do with California not funding the UC system as well as they used to. Prop 98 in 1988 shifted funding away from UC and CS systems towards community colleges. The UC system went from about 6% of the budget to a bit over 2%. That amounts to a loss of ~$15,000 per student in today's dollars.
    - tsimionescu 3y ago
      That's still inflation. It doesn't matter why the prices went up, it matters that they did.
      - Aloisius 3y ago
        Yes, but a summer of minimum wage today would be enough to pay for tuition at UCSD had funding been maintained at prior levels. Notably, minimum wage in California has increased faster than inflation since 1984.
        tsimionescu 3y ago
        Sure, it maybe would, but it isn't. That people are poorer than they were is still true.
- ponow 3y ago
  Yes, for living arrangements.

theteapot 3y ago

Pretty sure they have a steady poor people target rate as well (unemployment rate roughly) so no need to worry.

cjbgkagh 3y ago

One neat feature of ignorance is the ability to hold incorrect ideas with sincerity, I not only think economists are generally wrong, but the most dim amongst them are the most likely to be promoted to prominence.

wolverine876 3y ago
> One neat feature of ignorance is the ability to hold incorrect ideas with sincerity, I not only think economists are generally wrong, but the most dim amongst them are the most likely to be promoted to prominence. As you reject ignorance (which I applaud), what knowledge is that based on?

rootusrootus 3y ago

Are poor people's lives objectively worse now than they were, say, 40 years ago?

cjbgkagh 3y ago
Technology and innovation has made people’s lives better at the same time that politicians and bankers have made them worse. Just because the politicians and bankers failed to totally eclipse technology does not mean they are not a severe detriment.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Technology and innovation has made people’s lives better at the same time that politicians and bankers have made them worse. That's the SV fantasy!: I'm awesome and a super-genius, everyone else is useless, dumb and annoying, and therefore I should be all-powerful!. It's like they're all still 13 year olds hacking on their computers, where they finally feel really powerful. It's almost as if they've never learned anything more about the world - humanities are just entertainment for the wealthy - leaving themselves vulnerable to the most obvious self-deception. One might say that technology and innovation have turned our world into a hellscape, with massive social and political breakdown, massive mis/disinformation, and climate change. Maybe some innovation can build us new supersonic jets, better oil extraction, more effective automated online persuasion, or some snazzy financial tech - like CDOs, crypto, and private equity. On the other hand, our political institutions did an amazing job of getting the US through a global pandemic without even a recession. There are serious problems, such as housing and education prices, but I don't think anyone could have predicted how well things went economically.
  - cjbgkagh 3y ago
    I can't tell if this is satire, either way I had a good laugh.
    - WinstonSmith84 3y ago
      Yeah, I was torn but his last paragraph is 100% satire > On the other hand, our political institutions did an amazing job of getting the US through a global pandemic without even a recession. There are serious problems, such as housing and education prices, but I don't think anyone could have predicted how well things went economically. Just wait lol ..
      - FactKnower69 3y ago
        As of this week the yield curve has been inverted for a longer period than ever before in history, that's how you know the economy is healthier than ever
pastor_bob 3y ago
Certainly in their ability to buy homes. > Since 1963, inflation has risen 896%, while housing prices have risen by more than 2,350%. > For example, between 1984 and 2021, home prices in Massachusetts rose by 469.89% while incomes increased by 221.10%. ETC, ETC https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/correlation-inflation-houses.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/correlation-inflati...
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  Land zoned for development is the one thing you cannot produce in factories. No wonder that densely populated areas feel the shortage. Zone more land for denser development, and you will see the rents and home prices fall, or at least stagnate. That is why people started building skyscrapers immediately after reasonably developed lift technology was available.
Jensson 3y ago
They can objectively afford less housing, education, healthcare and such things than 40 years ago. They can afford better computers, but that is just thanks to technology, other than technology making things cheaper their lives are worse.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  "Housing" ... mostly a NIMBY problem. AKA not a small group of capitalists ruining it for everyone else, but a bunch of soccer moms who hate any densification and insist that their neighborhood must stay the same forever, weaponizing environmental laws to stop any development. Notably, cities that build nonetheless, be it Austin, TX, or Warsaw, Poland, buck this otherwise very widespread trend. "Education, healthcare" ... depends on the country involved, plus the extent of healthcare you can now get is vastly bigger due to scientific progress. Forty years ago, HIV infection was a death sentence and most cancers too.
  - FactKnower69 3y ago
    At any given time of year there are ~23 empty housing units for every single homeless person in the US, even close to 3 per homeless person in Los Angeles and New York City; somehow the constant, coordinated line of "supply constraints" and "grr NIMBYs!" doesn't hold up to the actual data
    - ianburrell 3y ago
      Vacant doesn't mean available. Apartments that are being shown to renters are vacant. Houses for sale are vacant. Houses that have sold or rented but haven't been moved into are not available. It would be impossible to house homeless in vacant houses. Sellers and landlords would never accept it because would make it hard to find people. The short-term rentals would be hard to mange, not good for the homeless to always be moving, and easily go wrong. Is the government going to compensate for damages? For delayed moving into new house? It is almost certainly cheaper to build the homeless housing.
  - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
spaceman_2020 3y ago
What was the middle class’ rate of home ownership then vs now?
smegger001 3y ago
you need to make adjustments for the question to make since, was the lowest earning quartile of the population worse off relative to the upper quartile 40 years ago verses the lower compared to the upper today.
ejb999 3y ago
People don't compare how well they were off 40 years ago vs today, they remember how things were in recent history - i.e. 3-4 years ago and then decide if they are better or worse off. Inflation is a killer for the poor and most of the middle class - and a boon for the wealthy (who own appreciating assets) - everyone I know who is not wealthy enough to not care, is feeling it.
andrewmutz 3y ago
The only way to answer this question is with data, not anecdote. And the people in this discussion thread are saying they don't trust the inflation data. I trust the data, and the data shows their lives are better. If you don't trust the data, it's impossible to know.
- ponow 3y ago
  A read of the data shows that, but it's not the only read nor the only data. So we can say wages have increased to keep up with inflation, but left out is all the money lost during the time lag before wages caught up. And whose wages caught up? If you use average wages, then you can hide the details. You really need to look at different income levels, or at least the median wage and the inflation experienced for that median person, bare minimum.
greedo 3y ago
40 years ago I could work a summer job at minimum wage and earn enough to pay a full year's tuition at UCSD. Doing the same thing in 2023 paid for less than 1/3 of the tuition.
- Aloisius 3y ago
  That has more to do with California not funding the UC system as well as they used to. Prop 98 in 1988 shifted funding away from UC and CS systems towards community colleges. The UC system went from about 6% of the budget to a bit over 2%. That amounts to a loss of ~$15,000 per student in today's dollars.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    That's still inflation. It doesn't matter why the prices went up, it matters that they did.
    - Aloisius 3y ago
      Yes, but a summer of minimum wage today would be enough to pay for tuition at UCSD had funding been maintained at prior levels. Notably, minimum wage in California has increased faster than inflation since 1984.
      - tsimionescu 3y ago
        Sure, it maybe would, but it isn't. That people are poorer than they were is still true.
ponow 3y ago
Yes, for living arrangements.