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Unfortunately, I think the route to more efficiency is funneling people to massive hub airports where widebody planes carry them on less frequent runs to other

Unfortunately, I think the route to more efficiency is funneling people to massive hub airports where widebody planes carry them on less frequent runs to other hubs— but that results in longer boarding times, less flexible schedules, and more stopovers, none of which the market wants. So instead we have a bunch of smaller "commuter" jets making point-to-point trips, many of which are short enough that they really should be trains, not air travel. And that's a whole other issue. Sigh.

rbanffy 3y ago
> many of which are short enough that they really should be trains That's a good point, but rail infrastructure is very expensive to build and, unlike planes, where you only need to build the destinations, you need to build every route. Anyway, the future of short commuter flights is electric.
- mnw21cam 3y ago
  The key determinant that tells you whether trains or planes are more cost-efficient is population density. If you have two cities far apart with not much in-between, then it's cheaper to build a couple of airports. If you have loads of other cities along the route, then it'd be cheaper to build a railway. The former case is true for much of North America, and the latter for much of Western Europe and UK.
  - mikepurvis 3y ago
    Commonly cited but not really grounded in reality— lots of places that have made rail work have very similar or worse density characteristics to the coastal US routes that should be a no-brainer: https://persquaremile.com/2011/05/27/u-s-not-dense-enough-for-high-speed-rail-think-again/ https://persquaremile.com/2011/05/27/u-s-not-dense-enough-fo...
- class3shock 3y ago
  If you take into account cost-per-moved-amount-of-cargo trains are dramatically cheaper, even including infrastructure. The only reason we don't use/develop them more is social/political bs not due to choosing the ideal engineering solution for the problem and that solution being planes) As for electric flight: 1 gallon of jet fuel has like 40 kwh of energy and weighs like 6 lbs. A Ford Lightning has a battery capacity of 100 kwh and that battery weighs 1,800 lbs. Electric flight ain't happening in a big way anytime soon with current battery tech.
sandworm101 3y ago
A supersonic passenger jet would not find much of market on short haul flights. They would either stick to the dense pockets of wealth, the biggest airports beside the biggest cities, or rely on feeder airports to bring passengers in. Either way, I don't see this saving much in actual travel time over the current system.
- smachiz 3y ago
  It's certainly niche, but NY-LON sees ~3 million non-connecting passengers a year. If they can make it quiet enough to be supersonic over land, it's a lot more compelling. But even being supersonic for the atlantic crossing will shave hours off of most EU routes from NY. I think the bigger problem is the time changes on a lot of routes make EU flights pretty efficient - you don't want the overnight flights to be shorter really (and I wish most were longer).
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Maybe overnight flights should optionally let you sleep on the ground before/after the flight. Charge extra, you don't have to pay pilots or for fuel, park away from the gate. You would need power without the engines but you could hook up a generator or a feed from the airport.
    - mikepurvis 3y ago
      Planes run on shore power at the gate anyway.
    - dmurray 3y ago
      Then turn on all the lights and wake you up for the preflight briefing!
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        I've been on redeye flights where, a few hours in, the pilot came on the PA, told us about something to see out the window, and also about the drink we could buy from the flight attendants - credit cards only please! Air travel is just endless indignities and discomfort.
wolverine876 3y ago
If planes are full, how can it be more efficient to fly my ~200 lbs (including lots of luggage!) from point A to B to C, adding extra distance and another takeoff, rather than directly from A to C? Are widebody planes that much more efficient?
- Zak 3y ago
  The short answer seems to be no. Newer planes are much more efficient than older ones, but the most efficient aircraft and flight segment per passenger-distance are the A320 Neo and 737 Max making ~1000 mile flights. Fuel burn is probably not the main reason airlines use the routing that they do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft
  - mikepurvis 3y ago
    I'd guess that staffing and gate time are big cost drivers. A lot of those "how Southwest succeeded" articles from back in the day cited very fast gate turnarounds as being a key thing— get the people off, get the other people on, get back in the air.
jahewson 3y ago
Dreamliner prevailing over the A380 already disproved that.

rbanffy 3y ago

> many of which are short enough that they really should be trains That's a good point, but rail infrastructure is very expensive to build and, unlike planes, where you only need to build the destinations, you need to build every route. Anyway, the future of short commuter flights is electric.

mnw21cam 3y ago
The key determinant that tells you whether trains or planes are more cost-efficient is population density. If you have two cities far apart with not much in-between, then it's cheaper to build a couple of airports. If you have loads of other cities along the route, then it'd be cheaper to build a railway. The former case is true for much of North America, and the latter for much of Western Europe and UK.
- mikepurvis 3y ago
  Commonly cited but not really grounded in reality— lots of places that have made rail work have very similar or worse density characteristics to the coastal US routes that should be a no-brainer: https://persquaremile.com/2011/05/27/u-s-not-dense-enough-for-high-speed-rail-think-again/ https://persquaremile.com/2011/05/27/u-s-not-dense-enough-fo...
class3shock 3y ago
If you take into account cost-per-moved-amount-of-cargo trains are dramatically cheaper, even including infrastructure. The only reason we don't use/develop them more is social/political bs not due to choosing the ideal engineering solution for the problem and that solution being planes) As for electric flight: 1 gallon of jet fuel has like 40 kwh of energy and weighs like 6 lbs. A Ford Lightning has a battery capacity of 100 kwh and that battery weighs 1,800 lbs. Electric flight ain't happening in a big way anytime soon with current battery tech.

sandworm101 3y ago

A supersonic passenger jet would not find much of market on short haul flights. They would either stick to the dense pockets of wealth, the biggest airports beside the biggest cities, or rely on feeder airports to bring passengers in. Either way, I don't see this saving much in actual travel time over the current system.

smachiz 3y ago
It's certainly niche, but NY-LON sees ~3 million non-connecting passengers a year. If they can make it quiet enough to be supersonic over land, it's a lot more compelling. But even being supersonic for the atlantic crossing will shave hours off of most EU routes from NY. I think the bigger problem is the time changes on a lot of routes make EU flights pretty efficient - you don't want the overnight flights to be shorter really (and I wish most were longer).
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Maybe overnight flights should optionally let you sleep on the ground before/after the flight. Charge extra, you don't have to pay pilots or for fuel, park away from the gate. You would need power without the engines but you could hook up a generator or a feed from the airport.
  - mikepurvis 3y ago
    Planes run on shore power at the gate anyway.
  - dmurray 3y ago
    Then turn on all the lights and wake you up for the preflight briefing!
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      I've been on redeye flights where, a few hours in, the pilot came on the PA, told us about something to see out the window, and also about the drink we could buy from the flight attendants - credit cards only please! Air travel is just endless indignities and discomfort.

wolverine876 3y ago

If planes are full, how can it be more efficient to fly my ~200 lbs (including lots of luggage!) from point A to B to C, adding extra distance and another takeoff, rather than directly from A to C? Are widebody planes that much more efficient?

Zak 3y ago
The short answer seems to be no. Newer planes are much more efficient than older ones, but the most efficient aircraft and flight segment per passenger-distance are the A320 Neo and 737 Max making ~1000 mile flights. Fuel burn is probably not the main reason airlines use the routing that they do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft
- mikepurvis 3y ago
  I'd guess that staffing and gate time are big cost drivers. A lot of those "how Southwest succeeded" articles from back in the day cited very fast gate turnarounds as being a key thing— get the people off, get the other people on, get back in the air.

jahewson 3y ago

Dreamliner prevailing over the A380 already disproved that.