4 ms·

There is actually quite a lot of evidence of God. There are many books, works, ancient religious structures, etc. which provides that evidence. It's the same e

by aprilthird2021 3y ago

There is actually quite a lot of evidence of God. There are many books, works, ancient religious structures, etc. which provides that evidence. It's the same evidence as there is evidence for ancient Sumerians. But then maybe you'll say "anything that exists is not evidence, we have to apply scrutiny to that evidence to see if it holds up". And of course everyone's level of scrutiny and what they view as proof and not proof will differ, so that's a road leading to nowhere fast. Perhaps the simplest proof of a God is that none of us truly live our lives as if there were no God. Many of even atheists don't live as if there is not a moral tally over their lives. They don't live as if their lives were truly meaningless (for if they did, they would see no issue in ending the whole cosmic accident of their own life or the lives of others on a whim). If God didn't exist, the ones who truly don't believe would likely act out much more on their beliefs no?

r2_pilot 3y ago
Point 1: ">There is actually quite a lot of evidence of God. There are many books, works, ancient religious structures, etc. which provides that evidence. It's the same evidence as there is evidence for ancient Sumerians. " This is a false equivalency. We know the Sumerians existed both because of their writings and other physical artifacts. However, if none of these were present today, that doesn't mean the Sumerians didn't exist. Similarly, just because there are words describing a god, and they came from a previous society, does not mean their god exists. Most people can agree on solid evidence or at least are willing to compromise/determine standards of evidence in order to agree with others. Point 2: "Many of even atheists don't live as if there is not a moral tally over their lives. They don't live as if their lives were truly meaningless" Human history and evolution in general show that altruism helps promote species' growth. Morals are codified behaviors that generally (not always!!) promote the growth of a human society. It is evolutionary-negative to end other members of your own species, so those traits are heavily selected against. Bottom line, people are naturally good because that's what gets humans reproducing. No god needed
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  > Bottom line, people are naturally good because that's what gets humans reproducing. No god needed This flies in the face of survival of the fittest, species fitness, and all sorts of other evolutionary ideas. There is also lots of evidence that humans are not naturally good and that this does not get humans reproducing. The most reproducing man in history, Genghis Khan was not very good at all. It also skirted around the other point that atheists do not live their lives as if they were meaningless, which they purport to believe.
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    >"This flies in the face of survival of the fittest, species fitness, and all sorts of other evolutionary ideas." For the counterexample, see pack animals and their dynamics. Re: Genghis, certainly force has a way of making exceptions to generalities, but in the average case the good guy gets the girl, holds down the stable, well-paying job in a socially adjusted manner, and thus the genes get spread. >"It also skirted around the other point that atheists do not live their lives as if they were meaningless, which they purport to believe." My life is meaningful to me and that's all I personally care about, I don't care that you think everyone of a particular lack of belief has to have a particular mental state associated with that arbitrary tag.
JR1427 3y ago
I believe in God for a number of reasons. Firstly, it just seems much more plausible that someone created the universe. If we walked in to the middle of nowhere and saw a beautiful statue, most of us would say "wow, I wonder who made it?" not "wow, what an incredible coincidence that this thing which has meaning to me just spontaneously formed". Another main reason is that I _feel_ like there is a God, and generally my feelings tell me things. When I feel hungry, I don't think "ah, but that feeling is only an illusion!" instead I go and eat. I feel like there is a God, so I go and eat. p.s. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, just putting my thoughts out there in case they are helpful to anyone else.
- alt227 3y ago
  I started writing a reply about how this is the 'infinite monkeys' argument, however on rereading your reply it looks like this is not correct. It seems like you are saying you base your reality on your feelings. To extend your examples, what do you think when you look up in the sky and see a Goodyear blimp? Do you think 'Wow look at that blimp, what a modern miracle that humans have made things that can fly" or do you go buy tires? EDIT: I dont mean to detract from or insult your beliefs in anyway. They sound very nice :)
  - JR1427 3y ago
    Ha, I've not seen a blimp in a long time! I think I'd probably think both those things :P I wouldn't say that I _only_ base my view of reality on my feelings, but I don't discount them just because they might be hard to explain. I think our feelings, as well as our thoughts, should be listened to. Not that it really makes any difference, but I have a science background (PhD, post-doc) so am used to thinking about evidence, so I hope you don't get the impression that I'm just too stupid to be an atheist! I appreciate your respectful reply, though. It's actually fun when you can exchange a few thoughts with people on the internet in a respectful way.
    - JR1427 3y ago
      As a side note, I also spent a period mentally tallying up the (sometimes famous) people on both sides of the God debate. When I discovered that someone I admire/respect believed in God, I'd add a mental mark on one column, and when I discovered someone else I admire/respect who doesn't, I'd add a mark in the other column. Both columns became full pretty quickly, so I concluded that someone's point of view on God cannot be a case of intellect or integrity. This at least helped me not feel insecure about my beliefs on that front. One reason why I don't hide my beliefs (although I rarely flaunt them, either) is so anyone else carrying out the same exercise has some more data. They might of course choose to put me in a "stupid believer" category, but that is up to them!
notanastronaut 3y ago
"If God didn't exist, the ones who truly don't believe would likely act out much more on their beliefs no?" I don't need some fear based faith system keeping me in check. Life is hard, difficult, and unfair enough as is without me adding hateful chaos to the mix. I do find it weird that people need the threat of a punishment in the hereafter to keep their baser instincts in check. I am highly suspicious of anyone who cannot seem to fathom that goodness or morality can be found in something outside of divinity. What may they be hiding under that coat of piety and how many rounds does it hold?
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  Many people seem to assume I meant "they would act badly" I mean "we would see them ending their lives on a whim, since life, they believe, is an accident and meaningless".
- ogogmad 3y ago
  > I don't need some fear based faith system keeping me in check. Maybe others do?
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
Given that the god of the Bible is a literally an amalgamation of various ancient Sumerian gods, I don't believe that this is the win that you think it is. And however powerful you think he is, he got his ass handed to him by Chemosh, a member of a Moabite pantheon, after the king of the Moabites sacrificed his heir in a burnt offering to his own god. I didn't make it up. That's in the Bible. The Christian god is what happens when you take a fictional character and keep on ascribing to him greater and greater powers because it's easier than describing his limitations. Same thing happened with Superman in the 40s and 50s, really.
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
> If God didn't exist, the ones who truly don't believe would likely act out much more on their beliefs no? But I do. My morality doesn't come from an imaginary being. It comes from my relationships with other people. I don't kill people because (a) it would bring me no joy to do so, (b) would bring me no benefit, and (c) we have laws that prevent killing because societies are more stable when they don't engage in random killings. Societies only get to exist if the people in them find a net benefit in staying alive and having others stay alive. It's amazing how many cultures have existed throughout our history as a species and none of them just went crazy because they didn't believe in some land-locked storm god who forgot about his wife. The idea that people are just going to go apeshit if they truly believed there wasn't a god is right up there in terms of ridiculousness with all the men in the Republican party and pastors who claim steadfast morality but keep getting caught with minors, women who aren't their wives, and gay men. So I feel sorry for you if you are so inherently immoral that you need to be held back by stories of a man in the sky, but some of us don't live our lives in fear of supernatural retaliation. And if we're being real, the vast majority of the planet don't believe in your god, including people who claim to be Christian. It's just easier to say that you do so that people will leave you alone.

r2_pilot 3y ago

Point 1: ">There is actually quite a lot of evidence of God. There are many books, works, ancient religious structures, etc. which provides that evidence. It's the same evidence as there is evidence for ancient Sumerians. " This is a false equivalency. We know the Sumerians existed both because of their writings and other physical artifacts. However, if none of these were present today, that doesn't mean the Sumerians didn't exist. Similarly, just because there are words describing a god, and they came from a previous society, does not mean their god exists. Most people can agree on solid evidence or at least are willing to compromise/determine standards of evidence in order to agree with others. Point 2: "Many of even atheists don't live as if there is not a moral tally over their lives. They don't live as if their lives were truly meaningless" Human history and evolution in general show that altruism helps promote species' growth. Morals are codified behaviors that generally (not always!!) promote the growth of a human society. It is evolutionary-negative to end other members of your own species, so those traits are heavily selected against. Bottom line, people are naturally good because that's what gets humans reproducing. No god needed

aprilthird2021 3y ago
> Bottom line, people are naturally good because that's what gets humans reproducing. No god needed This flies in the face of survival of the fittest, species fitness, and all sorts of other evolutionary ideas. There is also lots of evidence that humans are not naturally good and that this does not get humans reproducing. The most reproducing man in history, Genghis Khan was not very good at all. It also skirted around the other point that atheists do not live their lives as if they were meaningless, which they purport to believe.
- r2_pilot 3y ago
  >"This flies in the face of survival of the fittest, species fitness, and all sorts of other evolutionary ideas." For the counterexample, see pack animals and their dynamics. Re: Genghis, certainly force has a way of making exceptions to generalities, but in the average case the good guy gets the girl, holds down the stable, well-paying job in a socially adjusted manner, and thus the genes get spread. >"It also skirted around the other point that atheists do not live their lives as if they were meaningless, which they purport to believe." My life is meaningful to me and that's all I personally care about, I don't care that you think everyone of a particular lack of belief has to have a particular mental state associated with that arbitrary tag.

JR1427 3y ago

I believe in God for a number of reasons. Firstly, it just seems much more plausible that someone created the universe. If we walked in to the middle of nowhere and saw a beautiful statue, most of us would say "wow, I wonder who made it?" not "wow, what an incredible coincidence that this thing which has meaning to me just spontaneously formed". Another main reason is that I _feel_ like there is a God, and generally my feelings tell me things. When I feel hungry, I don't think "ah, but that feeling is only an illusion!" instead I go and eat. I feel like there is a God, so I go and eat. p.s. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, just putting my thoughts out there in case they are helpful to anyone else.

alt227 3y ago
I started writing a reply about how this is the 'infinite monkeys' argument, however on rereading your reply it looks like this is not correct. It seems like you are saying you base your reality on your feelings. To extend your examples, what do you think when you look up in the sky and see a Goodyear blimp? Do you think 'Wow look at that blimp, what a modern miracle that humans have made things that can fly" or do you go buy tires? EDIT: I dont mean to detract from or insult your beliefs in anyway. They sound very nice :)
- JR1427 3y ago
  Ha, I've not seen a blimp in a long time! I think I'd probably think both those things :P I wouldn't say that I _only_ base my view of reality on my feelings, but I don't discount them just because they might be hard to explain. I think our feelings, as well as our thoughts, should be listened to. Not that it really makes any difference, but I have a science background (PhD, post-doc) so am used to thinking about evidence, so I hope you don't get the impression that I'm just too stupid to be an atheist! I appreciate your respectful reply, though. It's actually fun when you can exchange a few thoughts with people on the internet in a respectful way.
  - JR1427 3y ago
    As a side note, I also spent a period mentally tallying up the (sometimes famous) people on both sides of the God debate. When I discovered that someone I admire/respect believed in God, I'd add a mental mark on one column, and when I discovered someone else I admire/respect who doesn't, I'd add a mark in the other column. Both columns became full pretty quickly, so I concluded that someone's point of view on God cannot be a case of intellect or integrity. This at least helped me not feel insecure about my beliefs on that front. One reason why I don't hide my beliefs (although I rarely flaunt them, either) is so anyone else carrying out the same exercise has some more data. They might of course choose to put me in a "stupid believer" category, but that is up to them!

notanastronaut 3y ago

"If God didn't exist, the ones who truly don't believe would likely act out much more on their beliefs no?" I don't need some fear based faith system keeping me in check. Life is hard, difficult, and unfair enough as is without me adding hateful chaos to the mix. I do find it weird that people need the threat of a punishment in the hereafter to keep their baser instincts in check. I am highly suspicious of anyone who cannot seem to fathom that goodness or morality can be found in something outside of divinity. What may they be hiding under that coat of piety and how many rounds does it hold?

aprilthird2021 3y ago
Many people seem to assume I meant "they would act badly" I mean "we would see them ending their lives on a whim, since life, they believe, is an accident and meaningless".
ogogmad 3y ago
> I don't need some fear based faith system keeping me in check. Maybe others do?

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

Given that the god of the Bible is a literally an amalgamation of various ancient Sumerian gods, I don't believe that this is the win that you think it is. And however powerful you think he is, he got his ass handed to him by Chemosh, a member of a Moabite pantheon, after the king of the Moabites sacrificed his heir in a burnt offering to his own god. I didn't make it up. That's in the Bible. The Christian god is what happens when you take a fictional character and keep on ascribing to him greater and greater powers because it's easier than describing his limitations. Same thing happened with Superman in the 40s and 50s, really.

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

> If God didn't exist, the ones who truly don't believe would likely act out much more on their beliefs no? But I do. My morality doesn't come from an imaginary being. It comes from my relationships with other people. I don't kill people because (a) it would bring me no joy to do so, (b) would bring me no benefit, and (c) we have laws that prevent killing because societies are more stable when they don't engage in random killings. Societies only get to exist if the people in them find a net benefit in staying alive and having others stay alive. It's amazing how many cultures have existed throughout our history as a species and none of them just went crazy because they didn't believe in some land-locked storm god who forgot about his wife. The idea that people are just going to go apeshit if they truly believed there wasn't a god is right up there in terms of ridiculousness with all the men in the Republican party and pastors who claim steadfast morality but keep getting caught with minors, women who aren't their wives, and gay men. So I feel sorry for you if you are so inherently immoral that you need to be held back by stories of a man in the sky, but some of us don't live our lives in fear of supernatural retaliation. And if we're being real, the vast majority of the planet don't believe in your god, including people who claim to be Christian. It's just easier to say that you do so that people will leave you alone.