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I'm afraid the answer is ugly. The problem is American politics. Dealing with climate change is hard, but it's the Americans making it impossible. We are among

I'm afraid the answer is ugly. The problem is American politics. Dealing with climate change is hard, but it's the Americans making it impossible. We are among the most prolific producers, both individually and in aggregate, and we're the only ones widely denying that the problem even exists. The rest of the world is reluctant to make (and stick to) a deal without American help. The thing with climate change deniers is that they're not just wrong on climate change. Climate change denial is a conspiracy theory, and people who believe one conspiracy theory are often open to more. The US is intermittently run by conspiracy theorists, doing all kinds of harm. That's the thing you can affect. You make it clear that you will not tolerate conspiracy theories. You tell people, "Voting is not just one day every few years. It has consequences that affect me, personally. We cannot be friends if you are going to make choices that hurt me. The time has past where we can just 'agree to disagree'." You cannot do anything about this problem on your own. It must be a group effort. Solving it yourself would be like trying to contribute your part to solving traffic by building a few feet of your own road. Like I said, this is ugly. Our friendship is the only real lever we have on how people act. People are going to tell me that we shouldn't let politics pick our personal lives, and that my approach here will just increase divisiveness. But I think divisiveness is already far past a tolerable level and extreme actions are required. So... feel free to ignore me. But I think this needed to be said.

safety1st 3y ago
This is amazingly, I mean profoundly misguided. I know people who have tried this on me. My life is better off now that they're no longer a part of it, when they've made attempts to reconnect I've ignored them. But most importantly, when they pulled this behavior, it actually influenced me to oppose the position they were supporting out of spite. Like any sympathy I had to their position if I was on the fence, was erased. Call me petty, call this irrational, but it's human nature and I know I'm not the only one. I bet most people won't admit this but I will: if a friend presents me with an ultimatum like "support climate action or else I won't be your friend anymore," I will oppose climate action, because fuck you. Do not do this if you want the world to improve.
- unclebucknasty 3y ago
  Alternative point of view: if it really is a reality-hostile or harmful conspiracy theory that is the subject of the ultimatum, then the person being confronted has arguably already issued a "fuck you" to the world.
- Tadpole9181 3y ago
  > if a friend presents me with an ultimatum like "support climate action or else I won't be your friend anymore," I will oppose climate action, because fuck you. This speaks about you.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    It does. But it also speaks about human nature. If you want to fix climate change and your plan doesn't work with the humans we have, you don't have a workable plan.
sickofparadox 3y ago
Surely America is the problem despite massive investment into decarbonizing [1] and dropping emissions to 30 year lows[2]. It can't possibly be any other countries building record number of coal-fueled power plants [3] [4] or moronic """green""" parties shutting down zero emission nuclear generators to open more fossil fuel power plants [5] [6]. If your analysis of any issue will just boil down to 'America bad' you are a thoroughly unserious person. [1] https://www.epa.gov/inflation-reduction-act/inflation-reduction-act-programs-fight-climate-change-reducing-embodied#:~:text=The%20Inflation%20Reduction%20Act%20invests,and%20other%20greenhouse%20gas%20emissions https://www.epa.gov/inflation-reduction-act/inflation-reduct... [2]https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-us-greenhouse-gas-emissions#:~:text=Data%20%7C%20Technical%20Documentation-,Key%20Points,above%201990%20levels%20in%202007 https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indica.... [3] https://globalenergymonitor.org/press-release/chinas-coal-power-spree-could-see-over-300-coal-plants-added-before-emissions-peak/ https://globalenergymonitor.org/press-release/chinas-coal-po... [4] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-increase-coal-fired-capacity-2024-by-most-least-6-years-2024-02-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-increase-coal-... [5] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-approves-bringing-coal-fired-power-plants-back-online-this-winter-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-approves-bri... [6] https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-invest-gas-power-plants-energy/ https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-inv...
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
But "climate change is going to kill us all in 50 years" is also conspiracy-theory-ish. I'm not sure there's a conspiracy there (other than blaming big oil, which may be pretty much factual), but it's similar. It's sweeping everything up into one grand, good-vs-evil narrative that is only loosely connected to facts. Now, sure, many people who are concerned about climate change don't go to that kind of extremes. But many do; the article we're discussing fits that mold (or at least the title does). On the other hand, not everyone who opposes certain measures to aid the climate is a climate denialist, either. So be careful about "you're with me all the way, or you're an enemy" logic. In fairness, you did say you're doing this to denialists. But be careful that the logic of your own position doesn't drive you further.

safety1st 3y ago

This is amazingly, I mean profoundly misguided. I know people who have tried this on me. My life is better off now that they're no longer a part of it, when they've made attempts to reconnect I've ignored them. But most importantly, when they pulled this behavior, it actually influenced me to oppose the position they were supporting out of spite. Like any sympathy I had to their position if I was on the fence, was erased. Call me petty, call this irrational, but it's human nature and I know I'm not the only one. I bet most people won't admit this but I will: if a friend presents me with an ultimatum like "support climate action or else I won't be your friend anymore," I will oppose climate action, because fuck you. Do not do this if you want the world to improve.

unclebucknasty 3y ago
Alternative point of view: if it really is a reality-hostile or harmful conspiracy theory that is the subject of the ultimatum, then the person being confronted has arguably already issued a "fuck you" to the world.
Tadpole9181 3y ago
> if a friend presents me with an ultimatum like "support climate action or else I won't be your friend anymore," I will oppose climate action, because fuck you. This speaks about you.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  It does. But it also speaks about human nature. If you want to fix climate change and your plan doesn't work with the humans we have, you don't have a workable plan.

sickofparadox 3y ago

Surely America is the problem despite massive investment into decarbonizing [1] and dropping emissions to 30 year lows[2]. It can't possibly be any other countries building record number of coal-fueled power plants [3] [4] or moronic """green""" parties shutting down zero emission nuclear generators to open more fossil fuel power plants [5] [6]. If your analysis of any issue will just boil down to 'America bad' you are a thoroughly unserious person. [1] https://www.epa.gov/inflation-reduction-act/inflation-reduction-act-programs-fight-climate-change-reducing-embodied#:~:text=The%20Inflation%20Reduction%20Act%20invests,and%20other%20greenhouse%20gas%20emissions https://www.epa.gov/inflation-reduction-act/inflation-reduct... [2]https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-us-greenhouse-gas-emissions#:~:text=Data%20%7C%20Technical%20Documentation-,Key%20Points,above%201990%20levels%20in%202007 https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indica.... [3] https://globalenergymonitor.org/press-release/chinas-coal-power-spree-could-see-over-300-coal-plants-added-before-emissions-peak/ https://globalenergymonitor.org/press-release/chinas-coal-po... [4] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-increase-coal-fired-capacity-2024-by-most-least-6-years-2024-02-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-increase-coal-... [5] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-approves-bringing-coal-fired-power-plants-back-online-this-winter-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-approves-bri... [6] https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-invest-gas-power-plants-energy/ https://www.politico.eu/article/nuclear-reactors-germany-inv...

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

But "climate change is going to kill us all in 50 years" is also conspiracy-theory-ish. I'm not sure there's a conspiracy there (other than blaming big oil, which may be pretty much factual), but it's similar. It's sweeping everything up into one grand, good-vs-evil narrative that is only loosely connected to facts. Now, sure, many people who are concerned about climate change don't go to that kind of extremes. But many do; the article we're discussing fits that mold (or at least the title does). On the other hand, not everyone who opposes certain measures to aid the climate is a climate denialist, either. So be careful about "you're with me all the way, or you're an enemy" logic. In fairness, you did say you're doing this to denialists. But be careful that the logic of your own position doesn't drive you further.